Duels of the Planeswalkers for XBox, PC, and PS3

B

BigBlue

Guest
Spidey - I meant that as an answer to the MP question - at least as it relates to the version I have... :D

Oversoul said:
I've wondered about this, but haven't seen real data on it. I've seen claims that seven or eight proper riffle shuffles effectively randomizes a 60-card deck, but I haven't verified them. In principal, it would be easy to do. All one would need would a deck, a computer, and a lot of time (most of which would be taken up recording the results of the physically shuffled deck).
Click to expand...

What is effectively random? :)

It is possible to write a riffle shuffle algorithm to test the theory... With MtG you have a different deck than a poker deck - because of all the duplication of cards - so that has an impact on it's randomness. The composition of a deck really plays into it too. A deck of 4 each of 10 cards + 20 lands (all the same) is going to randomize different than a deck with fewer 4 of's or with a couple different land colors... Maybe that's the key - my online decks rarely are the same as my build decks as I tend to do mostly 4 of's IRL decks, but online I don't have that sort of cardpool so they are more random with cards.
 
Oversoul

Oversoul

The Tentacled One
BigBlue said:
What is effectively random? :)
Click to expand...
Well, arranging the cards in a deck based on a perfect random number generator would be truly random. Can the same be said for shuffling cards? No matter how thoroughly cards are shuffled, the order is still deterministic. If one knew the order the cards started in and could track the motions of the cards as they were shuffled (not really possible for a human), one would be able to predict the order of the shuffled cards. I think Star Trek: The Next Generation had Data do that at some point. Whereas that wouldn't be possible for cards that are truly randomized. That's why I said, "effectively randomized." It might be pedantic. I don't know.

If I'm given a large number of lists of the same cards that have been thoroughly shuffled and ones that have been placed using a random number generator, and I consistently cannot tell which ones are which, then even if the shuffling isn't actually identical to true randomization, it's still random as far as I know. It's effectively random.


BigBlue said:
It is possible to write a riffle shuffle algorithm to test the theory... With MtG you have a different deck than a poker deck - because of all the duplication of cards - so that has an impact on it's randomness. The composition of a deck really plays into it too. A deck of 4 each of 10 cards + 20 lands (all the same) is going to randomize different than a deck with fewer 4 of's or with a couple different land colors... Maybe that's the key - my online decks rarely are the same as my build decks as I tend to do mostly 4 of's IRL decks, but online I don't have that sort of cardpool so they are more random with cards.
Click to expand...
The claims about it taking between 7 and 8 proper riffle shuffles to randomize a 60-card deck are, I believe, for any 60-card deck. So duplicates wouldn't matter. The presence of lots of duplicates might mean that fewer shuffles would still do the trick.

I think Spidey's right about there being complications, though. Riffle shuffling without leaving clumps is a skill not everyone has. And even if people are good at it, external factors could confound them. I've noticed that sleeved cards tend to clump more readily than unsleeved cards, especially if the air in the room is humid. Even a tiny amount of moisture can make plastic sleeves adhere to each other to a surprising extent. Hypothetical, perfect riffle shuffles aren't necessarily the same as ones that happen in the real world.

Personally, I hesitate to riffle decks containing individual cards that are worth considerable amounts of money, even in sleeves. And I'm not some maniacal collector that wants all of his cards to be in pristine condition. I'm just someone who's never had much money, but who has cards that have gone up in value over the years and would like to minimize damage to them. For that reason, I tend more toward pile shuffling, which is a bit slower than riffle shuffling.
 
S

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
I did a quick Google and the first two pages of results all deal with a regular deck of 52 cards and there seems to be some varying opinion of 7, 8, or 11-12 perfect riffle shuffles will randomize a deck and what situation you're in (casino games like poker or blackjack, family game of Crazy 8s, etc). I don't understand all of the math behind it but it's out there. Not sure if having 60 cards make a difference either. They all seem to reference Bayer and Diaconis from the 1990's.
 
Oversoul

Oversoul

The Tentacled One
Got my promotional M14 cards (for the Steam version of the game, it's an alternate art Scavenging Ooze with a few commons thrown in). I think those offers all end this week, just in case anyone seeing this got the game but hadn't redeemed the offer yet.
 
Oversoul

Oversoul

The Tentacled One
Another promotional thing...

Codes were released at various events that unlock additional cards for all of the decks. They can be found at various websites. I was unable to unlock any of these initially, as the game is rather buggy. I tried things others had said fixed the problem for them, and nothing worked. I came back later and was able to enter the codes with no problems. The codes are...

GKSNDR
DWNNDR
FTHPTH
TRCKSC
PRSTTT
RSNGSN
XBXBDZ
PXPRMD
MGCCTN
JRHPRD

See here for more details.

That's ten more card slots for each deck. Not bad.

Also, I found somewhere that there's a code to unlock one of the personas (it says that it can be unlocked by beating another player that has it, which is weird).

x340f5is979e7k3q

I figured I might as well try it. And it actually worked. Weird.

So far I've unlocked all of the cards for "Deadwalkers" and I'm working on "Chant of Mul Daya." If I keep playing this enough to unlock all of the cards for all of the decks, I'll post what I think are the optimal decklists. From what I've seen, "Avacyn's Glory" is the likeliest candidate for the strongest deck overall.

Still haven't tried Sealed (other than when I did in the demo).
 
B

BigBlue

Guest
Once you get a few unlocked cards - most of those decks roll through the campaign without many roadblocks. Jailbreak is hard for a few. I found the clones deck is insurmountable if your deck doesn't have removal and sometimes only with a god draw. But if you have beat it once you can skip it. I like most of those decks, at least they were fun to play.

Thanks for the persona unlock. I think the only thing I haven't unlocked besides the MP stuff is the mulligan to 1 card and win. Most of the decks you face have god draws and you would have a real tough time from that many cards down. I don't think you can do it in the final either as he comes out swinging too. My least favorite part is the programmed order of draws for most of the opponents. I thought it said if you bumped difficulty that'd change, but I didn't find that to be true.
 
Oversoul

Oversoul

The Tentacled One
BigBlue said:
Once you get a few unlocked cards - most of those decks roll through the campaign without many roadblocks. Jailbreak is hard for a few. I found the clones deck is insurmountable if your deck doesn't have removal and sometimes only with a god draw. But if you have beat it once you can skip it. I like most of those decks, at least they were fun to play.
Click to expand...
The encounters are definitely the hardest part for some decks. Simic Clones and Summoning Frenzy had me screaming at my monitor when I was playing certain decks.

I actually do like most of the playable decks. I was pleasantly surprised about that. A few of them are duds , but mostly they're pretty cool. I wouldn't really mind playing these decks in casual games if I owned the cards for them.

Thanks for the persona unlock. I think the only thing I haven't unlocked besides the MP stuff is the mulligan to 1 card and win. Most of the decks you face have god draws and you would have a real tough time from that many cards down. I don't think you can do it in the final either as he comes out swinging too.
Click to expand...
If you're as much of a completist as I am and just have to get the "Master Tactician" persona, it's easy, just a bit tedious. If you go up against the "Weather the Storm" encounter, mulligan down to 1 card, and never play anything, you're guaranteed to win. The encounter can't play Cursed Land on any of your lands if you don't have any, so it has no way to damage you and no way to avoid decking.

It's also possible to mulligan down to a removal spell against the Skirsdag Cultists encounter, then wait for the Shadowborn Demon to show up. The encounter can only ever play more Shadowborn Apostles once the Shadowborn Demon is dealt with (the entire deck consists of, I think, four Swamps, a Shadowborn Demon, and a bunch of Shadowborn Apostles), and it should be pretty easy to win that fight. Some of the faster decks could probably mulligan down to one card against the Moorland Zombies encounter and just win outright against it, but that would require really good draws. Simply never playing lands against Weather the Storm, on the other hand, is sure to work.

My least favorite part is the programmed order of draws for most of the opponents. I thought it said if you bumped difficulty that'd change, but I didn't find that to be true.
Click to expand...
I never bothered trying any but the highest difficulty. The encounters are completely pre-determined, though. I've played controlling decks against a few of them and deliberately allowed them to run their course without killing them, just to see what happened. I've also used Lobotomy on them with the Masks of the Dimir deck. They tend to have some big finisher card to make their last stand, and then the bottoms of their libraries are just basic lands and such. That's why they can't be unlocked as playable decks. It is a pity. Some of them look like they could be elaborated on pretty easily to make decent decks. If they'd made the Simic Clones encounter into a real deck, I'd totally have played it. Same with the Form of Dragon encounter. Probably a few others too.
 
Oversoul

Oversoul

The Tentacled One
Just ran into what I think was a pretty blatant bug. I was at 17 life and the AI opponent was at 15 and played Lord of the Pit with no other creatures on the board. I could have played a creature or a direct damage spell, but I decided to take a bit of a risk and drop a Furnace of Rath. I assumed that Furnace of Rath would double the 7 damage that my opponent would take from Lord of the Pit, and then the 7 damage that I'd take from the subsequent attack. We'd both take 14, so I'd be at 3 and my opponent would be at 1, allowing me to win the game on my next turn with either Pillar of Flame or Chandra's Outrage. Instead, my opponent took 7 damage and I took 14. Unless I'm missing something, Furnace of Rath is not operating as intended. I can't think of what I might have missed, though...
 
Oversoul

Oversoul

The Tentacled One
Spiderman said:
Nothing else was on the board? If so, you should report it...
Click to expand...
I did, but the only mechanism I found for that is a huge WotC message board thread that doesn't seem to actually resolve anything.

I think I spoke too soon about the stability anyway. In single player mode, bugs seem to be quite rare. But I tried the multiplayer out today. If the game cheated me out of something, say by deciding that my tutor would grab absolutely nothing or by not allowing me to respond with an instant to a sorcery on the stack (said the game was busy when I tried, then let the sorcery resolve once the message disappeared), I've decided to just concede on the spot. If I mulligan and then get manascrewed anyway, or if my deck is just beaten down, that's one thing. But I have better things to do than play a version of Magic that doesn't let me actually play the game. I tried six games. I conceded in five of them after the game cheated me in some way. Two of those were with Vampiric Tutor. I think all of them were with instants. The game just can't handle them in multiplayer for some reason.
 
Oversoul

Oversoul

The Tentacled One
Full, open-ended deck building? That could be a big boon for this franchise. I didn't get why they hadn't already done it.
 
Oversoul

Oversoul

The Tentacled One
I preordered the new one. I'm excited for it. Looks like it will be better than previous iterations.
 
Oversoul

Oversoul

The Tentacled One
It's been officially stated multiple times, so there'd better be open-ended deckbuilding. iPad users have early access, so there could be some unofficial confirmation now too.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top