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Nightstalkers
Guest
Still, I keep hearing from players that they dislike the fact that wizards just seem to be worthless now.
Dungeons & Dragons 4E
- Thread starter Killer Joe
- Start date
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DarthFerret
Guest
The wizard's role has changed quite a bit with 4th Edition. The heavy hitting power is not as prominent, and a lot of the better spells are ending up as long casting rituals. It seems that 4th Edition Wizards will be more of a crowd-control, mob-control type character, rather than the fantastical power-house in the higher levels. We have only made it to level 3 so far, and we have no wizard, so hard to see what happens later in thier levels.
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BigBlue
Guest
Hmmm... I haven't played PnP for a long time...
I didn't get any 3.5 - but own most of 3.0.
The changes I'm hearing about in this thread sound good for the most part... I have always disliked the "class" system... I think all characters should be able to choose from the skills and powers... I used to use the 2nd edition build your own class rules a lot when they came out... I also think a player should be able to choose their own stats - which is why I like the creation method from Neverwinter Nights - base 8, then assign points... If you want to add some chaos to it, you could add a die roll to your base points...
In terms of the Mage... the DnD mage has always seemed a bit overpowered in terms of their role... this is fine if you want to play that sort of world - as TSR chose to do... Tolkien is pretty much the basis for DnD - along with their own elements... Gandalf, the most powerful wizard in tolkien's 3rd age... Never cast fireball, lightning bolt, etc... There were certainly opportunities for him to cast magic, but instead he mostly strategized battle plans and used his intelligence. Certainly he cast a few spells... but nothing like a DnD wizard... It could be due to the fact he was part of the 3rd age in the books... which was the dwindling of magic... So, if Wizards of the Coast has dumbed down the magic part of the mage, that's alright with me...
I will be running a game for my sons this fall... it'll be 3rd edition, I'm not investing money in a new edition, nor will I be investing the time in learning a new edition...
I didn't get any 3.5 - but own most of 3.0.
The changes I'm hearing about in this thread sound good for the most part... I have always disliked the "class" system... I think all characters should be able to choose from the skills and powers... I used to use the 2nd edition build your own class rules a lot when they came out... I also think a player should be able to choose their own stats - which is why I like the creation method from Neverwinter Nights - base 8, then assign points... If you want to add some chaos to it, you could add a die roll to your base points...
In terms of the Mage... the DnD mage has always seemed a bit overpowered in terms of their role... this is fine if you want to play that sort of world - as TSR chose to do... Tolkien is pretty much the basis for DnD - along with their own elements... Gandalf, the most powerful wizard in tolkien's 3rd age... Never cast fireball, lightning bolt, etc... There were certainly opportunities for him to cast magic, but instead he mostly strategized battle plans and used his intelligence. Certainly he cast a few spells... but nothing like a DnD wizard... It could be due to the fact he was part of the 3rd age in the books... which was the dwindling of magic... So, if Wizards of the Coast has dumbed down the magic part of the mage, that's alright with me...
I will be running a game for my sons this fall... it'll be 3rd edition, I'm not investing money in a new edition, nor will I be investing the time in learning a new edition...
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DarthFerret
Guest
There are still classes, however, they work a bit differently. Every class has it's own Powers List that it has to choose from. There are 4 different types of powers. At will, Encounter, Daily, and Utility. At will is exactly that. You can do it at any time. Encounter powers can be used once an encounter (theory is that you need to have a short rest 5-10 mins before you can accomplish that again), and teh daily power is once per day. Utility powers are generally not attack powers, but things such as extrodinary moves. For example, tumbling through combat spaces, or a spectacular standing long jump, etc....
As for the wizard, he still has the spells, but they are not nearly as "catastrophic" as they used to be. Magic Missile has become the at will spell (not the only one) and changed a little bit. You must now roll to hit, but the damage starts a bit higher too. (2d4). Really, there are too many change to discuss just one, but as I am finding out quickly, so far I like most of the changes, but we have encountered a few things that may/maynot be mistakes. I plan on contacting Wiz Co about them as soon as I can put it all down in to some semblance of order.
As for the wizard, he still has the spells, but they are not nearly as "catastrophic" as they used to be. Magic Missile has become the at will spell (not the only one) and changed a little bit. You must now roll to hit, but the damage starts a bit higher too. (2d4). Really, there are too many change to discuss just one, but as I am finding out quickly, so far I like most of the changes, but we have encountered a few things that may/maynot be mistakes. I plan on contacting Wiz Co about them as soon as I can put it all down in to some semblance of order.
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BigBlue
Guest
I realized they still had classes... I'm just stating what sounds like a system that's getting closer and closer to the Hero System... Where players buy their powers etc...
Anyone else ever play the Hero (Champions) system? I actually played Star Hero, Champions (Comic Book Hero), and Fantasy Hero at different times... They are all pretty much interchangeable... The only part that's tough with them is items... You have to spend points to make items... and later on it's "weird" with items... You're expected to buy them with experience... so finding a magic weapon, you have to wait until you have enough experience to actually wield it - since it costs you experience to "buy" the item. (at least that's how I remember it being w/ our GM)
I'm not suggesting WotC implement the Hero System per se... just that I like customization options, and find the Class system too limiting...
Anyone else ever play the Hero (Champions) system? I actually played Star Hero, Champions (Comic Book Hero), and Fantasy Hero at different times... They are all pretty much interchangeable... The only part that's tough with them is items... You have to spend points to make items... and later on it's "weird" with items... You're expected to buy them with experience... so finding a magic weapon, you have to wait until you have enough experience to actually wield it - since it costs you experience to "buy" the item. (at least that's how I remember it being w/ our GM)
I'm not suggesting WotC implement the Hero System per se... just that I like customization options, and find the Class system too limiting...
Okay, I got a 4th Ed PH for my birthday and I even had the opportunity to attend a D&D Day event (even in Iraq they had them - but it was on a different day), but after reading the book and screaming "WHY?!!?" a few hundred times I decided I didn't want to play this in an environment of strangers.
Here's my take on this game: The rules look more like something you'd see in a table-top miniatures game or an MMORPG. You can count on countless video games being created from this because these rules will convert flawlessly. When I was reading through the "powers" I was honestly looking for instructions on how to attach powers to hot keys on my keyboard and whether I should right click or left click to attack.
Once again, WotC is releasing a new set strictly for the purposes of making money...
-Ferret
...Gygax spins like a gyroscope in his grave...
Here's my take on this game: The rules look more like something you'd see in a table-top miniatures game or an MMORPG. You can count on countless video games being created from this because these rules will convert flawlessly. When I was reading through the "powers" I was honestly looking for instructions on how to attach powers to hot keys on my keyboard and whether I should right click or left click to attack.
Once again, WotC is releasing a new set strictly for the purposes of making money...
-Ferret
...Gygax spins like a gyroscope in his grave...
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BigBlue
Guest
DnD isn't supposed to be about the "game"... more the interactions... but, like you said, it was w/ strangers...
I am sure you are absolutely correct about the rules being designed to be ported... for Hack 'n Slash, they're probably perfect rules. We have used miniatures forever in our games. It just made everything easy to keep track of. They didn't have enough rules - then w/ 3.0 and the horrible "Attack of Opportunity" which was worse than understanding Banding in Magic... it got tough. Throw in the "5' correction" and it got even more confounding...
I shouldn't have to have a complicated algorithm to figure out every combat, like you say. We enjoyed DnD for the atmosphere and the roleplay aspect, but our group has been together mostly since High School... so, it's not strangers. we've had a player or two who aren't from the core group, but they've always fit in. I tried playing DnD w/ strangers at a con once or twice... it's just not the same, no chemistry, no idea who to trust in terms of trust - as well as ability.
I am sure you are absolutely correct about the rules being designed to be ported... for Hack 'n Slash, they're probably perfect rules. We have used miniatures forever in our games. It just made everything easy to keep track of. They didn't have enough rules - then w/ 3.0 and the horrible "Attack of Opportunity" which was worse than understanding Banding in Magic... it got tough. Throw in the "5' correction" and it got even more confounding...
I shouldn't have to have a complicated algorithm to figure out every combat, like you say. We enjoyed DnD for the atmosphere and the roleplay aspect, but our group has been together mostly since High School... so, it's not strangers. we've had a player or two who aren't from the core group, but they've always fit in. I tried playing DnD w/ strangers at a con once or twice... it's just not the same, no chemistry, no idea who to trust in terms of trust - as well as ability.
Another thing that annoys me of course, is the lack of choice right now. Hardly any classes and a few alignments have gone the way of "banding". The game has been simplified down to something that is barely playable.
Of course, TSR did the same thing when Second Edition was released. The books were more expensive and included less in them. Later, we would get all of the supplements that were needed if you wanted to have more character classes and whatnot.
I guess the thing that annoys me the most (along w/ 3.5ed) is all of those nifty supplements put out by third party publishers become suddenly obsolete. A friend of mine near my home base has an entire shelf dedicated to 3.0 supplements - and then came 3.5 and he had to figure out ways to modify them. In some places it was easy, but in others it was downright impossible!
-Ferret
...I just can't believe that WotC would release a new version of a game, creating new rules, and making the old ones wrong...it's like they're only in it for the money or something...
Of course, TSR did the same thing when Second Edition was released. The books were more expensive and included less in them. Later, we would get all of the supplements that were needed if you wanted to have more character classes and whatnot.
I guess the thing that annoys me the most (along w/ 3.5ed) is all of those nifty supplements put out by third party publishers become suddenly obsolete. A friend of mine near my home base has an entire shelf dedicated to 3.0 supplements - and then came 3.5 and he had to figure out ways to modify them. In some places it was easy, but in others it was downright impossible!
-Ferret
...I just can't believe that WotC would release a new version of a game, creating new rules, and making the old ones wrong...it's like they're only in it for the money or something...
Well, like Magic, you don't have to go the 4.0 route if you like the 3/3.5 rules. Obviously there won't be any official support for that format anymore, but I figure over the few years 3.5 has to be pretty fleshed out anyways and you could always come up with more background if you need to. But the main rules are there and for casual role-playing purposes, that should be good enough.
Killer Joe
New member
As for Wiz Co. making money,....well, OF COURSE they're in it for the money. I do believe that the changes seem more lateral rather advancing the game forward. But like Spidey says, no one is stopping anyone from playing v2.0 or otherwise just like folks still like to play "batches" in Magic (pre- 6th Ed rules).
Killer Joe
New member
I finally got to play 4e last night at a local Borders Books Store at the Mall. It was just 3 of us and we basically did a combat encounter just to get the feel of it. I liked it but then again my exposure to years and years of a different system is non-exisistent since I've really begun to play within the last couple of years.
It's certainly different from v2.0 and v3.5 but no so much that you can't tell it's D&D. The PHB reads like magic instructions in that it's very methodical and you really don't have to draw any conclusions or ponder or interpretate any of the rules, it pretty spells it out as if you've never played before. I know this is very annoying to veteran players but the "dumbbed-downed" explanations are really helpful.
I bought the Starter Game Kit late last week which has Qucik-Start rules so I had an idea of what to do last night during the game. I knew some of the vocabulary enough to get by without looking/sounding like a total goober.
I'm probably going to buy the core books though I know it's not necessary.
It's certainly different from v2.0 and v3.5 but no so much that you can't tell it's D&D. The PHB reads like magic instructions in that it's very methodical and you really don't have to draw any conclusions or ponder or interpretate any of the rules, it pretty spells it out as if you've never played before. I know this is very annoying to veteran players but the "dumbbed-downed" explanations are really helpful.
I bought the Starter Game Kit late last week which has Qucik-Start rules so I had an idea of what to do last night during the game. I knew some of the vocabulary enough to get by without looking/sounding like a total goober.
I'm probably going to buy the core books though I know it's not necessary.
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mythosx
Guest
I know I'm a bit late weighing. But I agree with Spiderman. 4th seems like it was a lateral change rather than a real progression. The only thing I noticed that has a significant impact on the game is the new prestige class systems. What's a with a new edition every five years? 2nd edition lasted 15 years. 3rd was only about 4 and a half and same with 3.5. It's like the government saying your money is no good anymore and we want to print new money. For the foreseeable future I am sticking with 3.5.