Cantrip?

[Spiderman]

the stuff you miss when your server goes down at work for the day...

First, I disagree with the classification of Icatian Moneychanger. I don't think he's a cantrip (and let's see if I can explain it)... usually the "traditional" cantrips maintain a one-to-one type ratio when giving back the resource... and give it back ONE time (you don't get a choice of when you get a card (or more) back; same with the mana guys). With IM though, you DON'T get three life back at once at a specified time AND you can build up to get more. Using my (probably faulty) logic, the same goes for Time Vault; though technically you give up a turn to take a turn, it's at your choosing, not a pre-determined point in the game.

Whew! Also, Zadok, I take up your challenge because I KNOW )) that Ancestral Recall is part of the 3-1 cycle and it was originally a common also while playtesting Alpha and got bumped to rare just because the card-drawing ability was too strong even in the limited group WOTC was dealing with back then. It's in the first 10 (probably the first 5) Duelists in an article with Dr. Garfield himself and I will attempt to look it up either tonight or online (if WOTC keeps archives). What do I get if I win? (or conversely, what do you get if I lose?)

 

[SerraPlainswalker]

ya, recall was one of the cycle...if you would care for more recent proof...read the newest issue of inquest, it has a list of (in their opinion) the top 100 cards of all time...they ranked the recall as numero uno and told about how it was part of the cycle and WAS originally a common, but as spiderman said was changed to a rare because it was too powerful

 

[Mundungu]

Another "broken" cycle with rarity change :

the tutors
all uncommon but for the black, more powerfull but with extra cost and changed rarity.

Still a cycle though ...

my 0,02$

 

[DÛke]

Unstable Mutation and Giant Growth are ALMOST the same thing. I don't see any better replacement for Unstable Mutation.

Istanbul, yes, I know I'm going into another 'realm' or whatever, but, how would you like it if they ban your Counterspells? I'm sure you would be mad...

 

[Istanbul]

I certainly would. But you have to understand that without countermagic, blue becomes far and away the weakest color, to the point that nobody would play it.
If all you took away from black was Dark Ritual, it would still be quite playable. (Trust me. I HAVE an exceptionally lethal Extended black deck that doesn't run a single Ritual.)

 

[DÛke]

Trust me. I HAVE an exceptionally lethal Extended blue deck that doesn't run a single counter.

 

[Istanbul]

I'd love to see a decklist.

 

[Spiderman]

Warning: This is fairly long.

This is an excerpt from Card Spotlight from Duelist #8, written by Chris Page (hopefully we all know who he is and he qualifies as an "official" source"?). It extols the virtues of Giant Growth but the beginning paragraphs have the relevant information. There's also some neat trivia stuff in here such as What was Ancestral Recall's original name? This issue was printed December 1995, about half a year after Ice Age came out (slightly relevant later).

Thus I quote:

In the beginning, there were the five: Giant Growth, Ancestral Memory, Dark Ritual, Lightning Bolt, and Healing Salve. (Though back then, Healing Salve didn't prevent damage to creatures and Ancestral Memory hadn't yet been renamed to Ancestral Recall). All five were common. Richard Garfield's idea was that each color should have an easy was to get three of something for one mana. Thus the "boons" were born,and each color (except white) gained a powerful card.

Each boon was meant to reflect that color's theme. Black got fast, one shot-mana (as opposed to green's "reusuable" fast mana). Blue received the metamagic of accessing more spells, and over time this magic mutated into the library manipulation cards of Ice AgeTM and beyond. Red and white were easy, offering damage and protection respectively. And green got a combat spell, a type of magic green minors in, with spells like Beserk, Fanatical Fever, Venom, and Stampede. Because simply giving green a 3/3 creature for [one green mana] was too much a stretch even back then, green's boon instead reflected its strength in creature combat.

The Boon Decks

It took quite a while for the boons to be evaluated properly. No one knew at first just how good it was to draw a measly two extra cards, and we didn't understand that cards were by far the most valuable commodity in the game. Ancestral Memory was shuffled back to rare for safety, since initial estimates were that only the most fanatical players would buy as many as four decks.

{That's pretty much the relevant information. However, I thought the following was interesting in the inclusion of the boons in the design of Ice Age and the issue of overpowerness of them}

The overpowered Lightning Bolt survived under the same philosophy. There were only about ten Lightning Bolts in the early playtest environment; at that level, it was just a very good card, and it was impossible to collect enough Lightning Bolts to build a degenerate deck. (In fact, a deck of all direct damage was inconceivable at the time, but that's another story.) And in the same way, Giant Growth slipped through those same cracks.

With all of the inherent problems, the idea of a full cycle of boons (one for each color) was eventually realized to be unworkable. But the individual cards were so fundamental to using a color's magic that boons lived on long after they were considered infeasible. In the original incarnation of Ice Age, for instance, developed months before Magic's initial release, all five boons were there. Ancestral Recall quietly fell into rare and then disappeared completely after Magic's GenCon(r) release, breaking the whole cycle's symmetry.

Later it was decided that Ice Age should be fixed and balanced within itself, and the remainder of the boons came under the microscope. Healing Salve vanished because it wasn't powerful enough to justify repeating. Lightning Bolt got dropped toward the end because of the possibility of degeneracy, and it was replaced with the less abusable Incinerate. The removal of Lightning Bolt was an easy decision, since a deck made of only Lightning Bolts and mountains was too degenerate. In the end, only Dark Ritual and Giant Growth remained in Ice Age. And they were powerful enough that they only survived after very close examination.

Rest of article

That's it. Interesting insights there. If you can't find this online and need a hard copy, I'd be happy to mail it to you.

 

[DÛke]

Don't you believe me Istan?
Well, here:

Twister:
4x Anscetral Recall
4x Time Walk
4x Time Twister
4x Psionic Blast
4x Lighting Bolt
4x Wheel of Fortune
4x Black Lotus
4x Mox Ruby
4x Mox Sapphire
4x Volcanic Island
4x City of Brass
9x Island
7x Mountain

THERE!

 

[Ed Sullivan]

ummm...

 

[nodnarb24]

Tag Guard
Duke that is not an extended deck. All of those cards are banned in extended except for the land.

 

[Istanbul]

Actually, that deck isn't legal in any format; it's LITTERED with Restricted cards.

And there's no WAY you have that deck, Duke. I'm saying that I literally *have* the deck I discussed. As in, I'm holding it in my left hand right now.

 

[nodnarb24]

Tag Guard
It is the most illegal deck i have seen

 

[DÛke]

You couldn't wait until you get me, couldn't you Istanbul?
Anyway, did I EVEN mention it was an extended deck? NOPE

AND by the way, I DO have the deck. That's right, I have every card you see in there...so shut the hell up Istanbul
OK, I'm just jokin here, don't even think about flaming me, I'M JUST joking Ok, NO, I don't have the deck. I don't think anyone does, but seriously, I do have a good blue deck that doesn't use any countermagic.

 

[nodnarb24]

Tag Guard

Yes you did say that was your deck. In your previous post to the deck list you said "I HAVE an exceptionally lethal EXTENTED blue deck that doesn't run a single counter." Then istanbul ask to see a deck list. THen you posted a deck list saying "Don't you believe me Istan? Well, here...(deck list)...THERE!" By saying that you implied that that was the deck list to your Extended blue deck.

 

[DÛke]

Oooops, then you can slap me now for being stupid
Well, I do have a good blue deck that doesn't use countermagic and it's T2...

Here:

Black:
4x Duress
4x Stupor
Blue:
4x Soothsaying
4x Fog Bank
4x Wartax
3x Energy Field
2x Hoodwink
2x Morphling
1x Palinchron
Artifacts:
4x Ring of Gix
4x Sky Diamond
Lands:
4x City of Brass
5x Swamp
15x Island

Here, does that look good?

 

[nodnarb24]

Tag Guard

Now that looks legal. It also looks like a good deck

 

[DÛke]

Duh! It is a good deck, and it could win too.
Remember now, I'm only using T2 cards, god KNOWS what I can do with extended. See Istan, you don't have to be so...so...so..I don't know, I don't think there's a word for you yet, maybe there is, but I don't think it's created yet. Could I call you Psycammar? Naaaaaah, I call Casey that. I think I'll call you "Flamanaich"! Is that cool with you Istanbul? Ok, I'll just call you that then
NO OFFENSE If you know what I(or that word) means
Muaaaaaaaa haaaaaa haaaaaaaaa

 

[Istanbul]

Sorry! Still doesn't work.

You said you had an Extended blue deck that won a lot.
Not only is that T2 and black/blue, but I can't imagine it winning against rebels, LD, or many of the other decks out there.

 

[DÛke]

Ok, so what!
I lied, I don't have a fully extended deck! So kill me now
But come on, you would be pissed if they ban Counter Spell, wouldn't you?

And trust me, I could build a pretty good Extended Mono Blue deck that doesn't use counter magic.

Istanbul, you are telling me that blue wouldn't exist without magic?
I don't think so. It's like saying black wouldn't exist without discard, and you know that's not true.