Which Artifact you want to see reprinted?

[Oversoul]

Okay, I think this was the post to which you were referring...

I would be a liar if I said they didn't help, because they are the most powerful cards ever printed, but there are such a thing as budget decks that use no card valued at over $20. Mono black and mono red come first to mind. Also, there are "power" cards that are just as powerful as the classic power nine that can swing a game are are easy to get ahold of, such as Yawgmoth's Will and Ballance. And then there's new things like Afinity artifact based decks which are easy to build and hard to stop once they get rolling, even for a power filled deck.

Mishra's Factory, Stripmine/Wasteland, Counterspell, Psycotog+cheap blue cantrips. A competiitive deck can be made for under $100.

But, most people don't see that when a freak "god draw" occurs and someone really does win on the first turn. But that's the exception, not the rule.

Without any decklists or anything, I can't be sure exactly what's going on. Although he seems to have the same idea I do about "budget" decks using cards that cost $20 or less.

I'm not sure about $100 decks beating $4,000 decks though. Maybe the decks he's talking about have some power cards, but aren't fully powered. Or maybe the players in his area with powered decks aren't building very good ones or are bad players. I don't know.

It's true that some of the most powerful cards in Vintage are easy on the pocketbook. But, just as an example, if we take Yawgmoth's Will, the decks that use it most destructively are probably Tendrils decks. And in order to compete, these Tendrils decks need cards that DO cost a lot of money. And, I must note that with modern Tendrils decks (and other combo), first turn wins are not "freak" hands or exceptions. They're less common than second or third turn wins, but a good Tendrils deck with a Black Lotus and some drawing power in the opening hand can pull off a first turn win easily.

Again, I think the odds are against a budget deck here. Non-budget decks have every weapon at their disposal that you do, plus others that are even better. If I build a Gifts deck that has to be able to handle fully powered Affinity decks, it simply isn't going to roll over to your budget Affinity deck that has fewer options in its design than the fully powered version--those overly expensive cards weren't put in there just because they look cool.

 

[Spiderman]

Lythand: Say what?

Oversoul: I'm not sure of the circumstances of Rando's experience(s) either. But it does put a crimp in the statement "You need the Power 9 to compete [successfully - which goes without saying]". I just get the impression you're talking about the overall Vintage scene which makes sense and would be great if every Vintage player got together in every tourney ever held and played each other. But we all know that's not true... every area has its own Vintage scene and players and levels of skill.

Now, what you say may still apply if one studies/delves down into enough locations that hold Vintage tourneys. I'm not arguing that either. But so far, I haven't seen that either of us have done so and so can't really say for sure whether a "budget deck" can compete with a "P9" deck.

A viewpoint I'd like to hear is Tabasco's, as he's indicated in the last month that he's been playing serious Vintage tourneys for a while (with of course the caveat that it applies in his area - unless he's been traveling around. But still, it's another point of view).

 

[Oversoul]

I'm not sure of the circumstances of Rando's experience(s) either. But it does put a crimp in the statement "You need the Power 9 to compete [successfully - which goes without saying]". I just get the impression you're talking about the overall Vintage scene which makes sense and would be great if every Vintage player got together in every tourney ever held and played each other. But we all know that's not true... every area has its own Vintage scene and players and levels of skill.

I'm not trying to discount that the game varies regionally. I have tried to make note of it.

Now, what you say may still apply if one studies/delves down into enough locations that hold Vintage tourneys. I'm not arguing that either. But so far, I haven't seen that either of us have done so and so can't really say for sure whether a "budget deck" can compete with a "P9" deck.

True, we can't say for sure. But I'd predict that if you gave me (by no means an experience Vintage tournament player) a first tier Vintage deck (with the possible exception of the ones that run Gifts Ungiven, as I'd need some practice first--the others would be familiar enough or simple enough for me to handle) and ran me through a gauntlet of budget decks, the results would support the conclusion that budget decks can NOT compete with first tier Vintage decks.

Even if it didn't perform so well (I'd say eight out of ten matches is fine, but seven out of ten is not), I don't think any player anywhere could take a budget deck through a similar gauntlet of first tier decks and come out with a winning record (or even a five out of ten record).

But, I won't discount that budget decks might be able to compete with fully powered decks--in regions where there is a dearth of good players with solid (first or second tier) decklists. Perhaps that is the case with Rando.

 

[Spiderman]

That may be true. But again, if your region doesn't support "all top tier" Vintage decks, you only have to worry about the ones being played. And it could be that since budget decks don't have to run the full gauntlet, but just the decks being played (and they could be "fully powered or not"), then they can compete.

Although I do like your notion of simulating a Vintage gauntlet with top tier decks vs budget decks... would be interesting to see the results.

 

[Oversoul]

Although I do like your notion of simulating a Vintage gauntlet with top tier decks vs budget decks... would be interesting to see the results.

Well, I don't have the time or another nerd to be my opponent right now, but if I ever do decide to do something like that, I'll definitely come here for ideas on what budget decks to use...

 

[Spiderman]

Why here? I was thinking the budget decks that actually crop up at such tourneys, like the ones mentioned in Rando's report...

 

[Oversoul]

Well, I don't see any decklists for them in the tourney reports I've read. The only times I've seen a tournament report for a budget deck that actually won were also times where the matchups were like

Round 1: Burn
Round 2: Suicide Black
Round 3: Mirror Match
Round 4: Mirror Match

Or something like that. Not really an indication of how good the deck actually is. If you can find a budget deck that won a tournament in which fully powered decks were involved, by all means, post a decklist. I don't recall ever having seen one.

 

[Spiderman]

I don't know if the deck has to win to be considered - probably placing in the Top 8 is good enough (well, depending on how many decks/players there were overall). But yeah, it'd involve some digging...

 

[Oversoul]

I don't know if the deck has to win to be considered - probably placing in the Top 8 is good enough (well, depending on how many decks/players there were overall). But yeah, it'd involve some digging...

Agreed, top 8 is more than adequate if it's a big enough tournament (not sure what counts as "big enough" in this context, though).

 

[Spiderman]

Me neither. My first thought is maybe a third of the total field, so that would make it 24 decks? But if overall attendence of such events is less, then I guess whatever that is...

Beats me

 

[Budget Player Cadet]

Nev disk (I like red. Red near auto-loses to White )
(rummages around...)

I feel your pain, and it pisses me off too. In fact, I'm going to write about that!