the exact text of the 6th edition end phase and my proposed fix

[theorgg]

312End Phase

312.1 the end phase consists of two steps:end of turn and cleanup


313.End of turn step
313.1 All "at end of turn" abilities trigger and go on the stack.(see rule 404, "triggered Abilities.") Then the active player receives priority to play spells and abilities.


314. Cleanup Step

314.1 The cleanup step proceeds in the following order.
314.1a First, if the active player's hand contains more cards than his or her Maximum hand size(normally seven), he or she discards enough cards to reduce the hand to that number. this action does not go on the stack.

314.1b Then, simultaniously, all damage is removed from permanants and all "untill end of turn" and "this turn" effects end. This action doesn't go on the stack.
314.1cThen,only if the conditions of any state-based effects exist or if any abilities have triggered, the active player receives priority to play spells and abilities. once the stack is empty, another cleanup step begins. Otherwise, nobody recieves priority and the step ends.


if you slogged through all that, you would see that the cleanup step will repeat if anything happened. the end step should have this happen if any spell or non-triggered ability is played. this would fix the loophole and allow the erratta on waylay to be repealed.

what do you think?

 

[ben]

Hey,

Well, it sounds like a good idea, unfortunately under the current wording of Lifeline(listed below), you can get an infinite loop going with a Lifeline, Ghitu Slinger, and another creature that the Ghitu Slinger can kill. This is because whenever a creature with lethal damage is destroyed it creates a state-based effect.

This allows the Lifeline player to continue the End Phase until they have either infinite life, or some other winning condition.

I think the proper way to errata Waylay would be to re-word it in such a way that the tokens would be destroyed at the Cleanup Step. This would ensure that if you were given priority on the Cleanup Step, and played Waylay, that the Cleanup Step would repeat itself.

I also believe that if we try and change the rules themselves that we will create other side effects not intended by changing the rules.

Currently, now that everyone knows about the End of Turn loophole, everyone has been looking at cards that can be used in conjunction with that rule. This means that most, if not all, of the cards affected by the End of Turn step have been looked at.

Therefore, I believe that with a little errata we can keep the End of Turn Step in check. Currently, the most problematic card is Thawing Glaciers, which should be able to be solved in the same way as Waylay.

P.S. Why hasn’t someone just changed the wording on Waylay to say something like “Put 3 2/2 Knight tokens in play until your Cleanup Step”? I mean that is what they refer to the step as in the rule…

Just my thoughts.

Ben
CPA Member


______
LIFELINE
5
Artifact
Whenever a creature is put into a graveyard and a creature is in play, return that creature from that
graveyard to play under its owner’s control at end of turn.

 

[Ed Sullivan]

RE: Ben's P.S.
That actually works (one of the few fixes that does). I still think they should fix the end step if possible, or just leave everything as is.
As a little different wording:

Waylay
2W
Put 3 2/2 Knight tokens into play until end of turn. (basically the same)

This would avoid the "I'm at 2 with a soul warden. My opp. shocks me, but I can't cast my waylay cuz it isn't combat" situation.

-mike

 

[Limner]

A majority of the confusion caused by the new rules comes from spell stack resolution. This can be cleared up with a simple rule change. All that is required is to limit responses to the last spell on the stack and disallow any response once the last spell has resolved (and thereby the stack must finish resolving). This also clears up some infinite looping issues whereby a resolving effect is placed back on the stack in response to a resolving effect. It seems this resolves (pardon the pun) the problem but does it cause others? Look forward to your input...the Limner

 

[Zadok001]

That particular fix causes some difficulties... Saying that you are putting something into play until end of turn implies that either it never comes into play (just kinda gets sorta put into play), or there are always new Knights being put into play.

I propose a different fix. Simply do what they did for Undiscovered Paradise.

Waylay 2W
Instant
Put 3 Knight tokens into play. Treat these tokens as 2/2 white creatures. Remove them from the game at the beginning of any turn.

This solves the problem.

--Zadok001, aka Greater Good fanatic