Public Education Discrimination...

Ferret

Moderator
Staff member
DUke, you always amuse me. You always get so indignant when one of us figures you out. You use mile long posts to say what could be said in just a couple of lines...

....still, oddly enough, I've found most of your arguments in this thread to be valid so I see no reason to argue w/ your message - just your delivery...

-Ferret

"...as usual :)"
 
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Thallid Ice Cream Man

Guest
I have changed my mind a bit about the school.
I thought it was optional. Even if it is not, it seems too much like it's not being done for the students (now that I read some of the details in that article).
The only qualm I have is that there's no way I can think of that people could see this positively before it happens -- except me, as anyone with a scrollbar can see, but I'm special :p.
Still, that probably should tip one off that it's a stupid idea, and I really can't see why it could be conceived of in a very positive way.

Originally posted by EricBess
A young man, curious about changes happening in his body, has an experience with an older man who takes advantage of his curiosity. The young man becomes confused an is unable to interpret new emotions that he is experiencing. Mix with confusion are pain, betrayal, and physical pleasure. This continues and the man eventually "realizes" that he is homosexual. Now, I'm not claiming that this is the pattern for all, but I think that it happens this way far more than most advocates are willing to admit.
If it does, a good deal of it is likely because of religious institutions or other religious or "Christian"-minded organizations, so your moral argument fails to impress me.
My insinuation is as unfair as your above insinuation is.
 
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Chaos Turtle

Guest
Originally posted by DÛke
...blah blah blabbity blah (ssdd) blah blah and yet again blah :)
A wonderful demonstration of my point, exactly. Clever of you to bring up my as-yet unrealized ambition of being a published writer. I shall now weep, wail, gnash my teeth, rend my clothing, and dress in sack-cloth and rub ashes on my face. Such despair.

:p

But seriously. If being straightforward is so contrary to your personality, far be it from me to ask you to change it.

I love you just the way you are.

:cool:
 

TomB

Administrator
Staff member
Originally posted by Chaos Turtle
...while others (including myself) grew weary of it a couple of years ago and have learned to skim through what you write very quickly to see if there's anything we might actually want to read and bother to reply to.
Count me in as one of the above, but go one step further for me and say that I only read what he writes when someone in a subsequent post references something he wrote, and it sounds so ridiculous that I feel that I must go back and verify that he really did write it.

Not that I don't trust you all to be accurate...:p
 
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DÛke

Guest
...

So now you want straightforward? <puts off cigarette with a little disdain and impatience> Just few days ago you wanted basis form my super-straightforwardness, ha?

But alright, I'll play any game you want, just to show you how such a fickle creature you are...

Straightforward.

Gay men, and women, aren't normal.

Straightforward.

Religious men are the sickest species of men to ever curse this wonderful Earth of ours.

Straightforward.

The idea of God, the "divine," "reason," "objectivity," "for the sake of others" - are all products of the aforementioned sick men and the degenerating man species in general. Coupled with the following:

Straightforward.

...unexamined science has sickened the already degenerating man species further, slowly feeding on the basis of society, until the base itself becomes left over cookie crumbs and collapses. In such cases, "freedom" becomes the only law, since any actual principle is bound to fail in the face of science. Meaning that freedom has always meant one thing in "free loving" nations: obey the unexamined self.

Straightforward.

I am anti-America. Not to be confused for anti-American.

Straightforward.

I think you, Robert, for some reason can't read and understand an analysis, and thus want straightforward outlooks...but you do not enjoy straightforwardness because it seems as if one has no basis for making assertions. Still yet, you don't enjoy an analysis, especially if it is multidimensional, because you don't know what to focus on, which I surprisingly understand and have come to accept. Now I know I have gay friends...but man! Without offense, your moodiness has got to be the gayest...

Was that straightforward enough?

I believe it was. <lights a cigarette> And if you decide that all those are baseless assertions again, I'll be more than happy to redirect you to the rest of the thread, in which I have took the time to build a foundation for all I say - hopefully someone out there read me and understood just 1%...that's actually enough to make you just a little more considerate towards what I say. Not that I'm about to make such a grandiose demand as wanting to be understood by anyone who has an American background! No! My friend, I don't demand the impossible from you! God shall become more possible before I.

Straightforward.

I just write for the wrong crowd, that’s all. Ever felt that way? Like you're in the wrong crowd?

Straightforward.

What you mean by "straightforward": mere opinions any filth of society can make, without having personal thoughts behind them, no personal inquiry, insight. "Straightforwardness," in other words, lack of personality. You want me to write for Americans and the American-minded, you want me to write so that you can say you "disagree" without offering any basis whatsoever. You want to shield yourself that easily. No one can blurt out a "I disagree" in my face anymore, without actually having to think...and I guess that is a huge problem to those who lack the ability – thus they want me to be straightforward.

Thank you. Thank you very much. <tips hat, and leaves the bar>

<stops midway before exist, scratches head, and turns around> And just for the record - I don't love anyone and no one is allowed to love me.

<exists while murmuring: "I will never grow up, not if it means losing my spirit! You people are so...bluh...bluh...blue...blue...blur...blur...bah...ba...b...">
 
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train

Guest
Chaos Turtle - the reason I mentioned he/she/whomever gods it would be wanted us to serve them... is because that is what any established religion preaches... observing the rules within their respective holy writings... That's the general view of rieligions...

As for those texts - one thing concerns me - they were all written by man... nuff said...

I respect each individual's rights to believe, worship, and live... but the consensus of the religions of the world - has been influenced by man to an irreversible degree...


Straightforward. Gay men, and women, aren't normal.
Define normal - are you using your definition of normal, the worlds, mine, god's, whose?...

Straightforward. Religious men are the sickest species of men to ever curse this wonderful Earth of ours.
Define religious - is it the person full of beliefs, some beliefs, or the person without belief...

Straightforward. The idea of God, the "divine," "reason," "objectivity," "for the sake of others" - are all products of the aforementioned sick men and the degenerating man species in general.
And yet you have taken part in the dissection of this product... Does that mean you believe in it also?...

Straightforward. ...unexamined science has sickened the already degenerating man species further, slowly feeding on the basis of society, until the base itself becomes left over cookie crumbs and collapses. In such cases, "freedom" becomes the only law, since any actual principle is bound to fail in the face of science. Meaning that freedom has always meant one thing in "free loving" nations: obey the unexamined self.
But freedom is not a law...

Straightforward. I am anti-America. Not to be confused for anti-American.
Is there another place you'd rather be?...

Straightforward. I just write for the wrong crowd, that’s all. Ever felt that way? Like you're in the wrong crowd?
You don't write for the wrong crowd... you present ideals to a crowd that does not share theideals being presented... but finding the right crowd, one that shares the ideals, is to segregate yourself, if they are the onyl ones you wish to write for... You say yourself - "push the limits"... so why limit yourself with the right crowd... Doing as you have been is the only way an ideal can be shared, or made known to other's existence...
 
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Thallid Ice Cream Man

Guest
Originally posted by train
Chaos Turtle - the reason I mentioned he/she/whomever gods it would be wanted us to serve them... is because that is what any established religion preaches... observing the rules within their respective holy writings... That's the general view of rieligions...

As for those texts - one thing concerns me - they were all written by man... nuff said...

I respect each individual's rights to believe, worship, and live... but the consensus of the religions of the world - has been influenced by man to an irreversible degree...
It's not a consensus, I don't think Buddhism involves that.
Moreover, Chaos Turtle is not a religious man. Spiritual perhaps, but not religious. Neither am I. I don't think the dogma of these religions automatically reflects God just because the religions themselves have some similarities. Perhaps in religions whose believers were all killed there are different beliefs?


Originally posted by train
Straightforward. Gay men, and women, aren't normal.
Define normal - are you using your definition of normal, the worlds, mine, god's, whose?...
I'll let DÛke field this one but remember that his definition of normal is a disparagement.

Originally posted by train
Straightforward. The idea of God, the "divine," "reason," "objectivity," "for the sake of others" - are all products of the aforementioned sick men and the degenerating man species in general.
And yet you have taken part in the dissection of this product... Does that mean you believe in it also?...
He believes in the product's existence, much as I believe in the existence of the tree outside my house. That is all. Next.

Originally posted by train
Straightforward. ...unexamined science has sickened the already degenerating man species further, slowly feeding on the basis of society, until the base itself becomes left over cookie crumbs and collapses. In such cases, "freedom" becomes the only law, since any actual principle is bound to fail in the face of science. Meaning that freedom has always meant one thing in "free loving" nations: obey the unexamined self.
But freedom is not a law...
The "intellectual" least common denominator these days is a generally vapid search for self preservation and self worth at the cost of everything else. It would be a worthy search IMO, except that most people don't penetrate themselves very far. You need to do that to see what you really enjoy and should work to hold on to. Otherwise freedom is just irresponsibility. I am not perfect in this regard. I can't speak for DÛke. I hope for your sakes that you people know what you need and can get it, but I doubt it. Few, precious few can.

Originally posted by train
Straightforward. I just write for the wrong crowd, that’s all. Ever felt that way? Like you're in the wrong crowd?
You don't write for the wrong crowd... you present ideals to a crowd that does not share theideals being presented... but finding the right crowd, one that shares the ideals, is to segregate yourself, if they are the onyl ones you wish to write for... You say yourself - "push the limits"... so why limit yourself with the right crowd... Doing as you have been is the only way an ideal can be shared, or made known to other's existence...
True, but a "right crowd" might work to understand what he's saying and penetrate deeper than semantics in criticism of his views.
I can understand that we may all be tired of this, and that's OK. We're just not the right crowd, that's all.

Now, :yawn: I stop being the unappointed spokesman :rolleyes: :p


DÛke: Being a self deprecating flaky introspective intellectual philosopher type, I sympathize with you somewhat. It's so hard being self-deprecating... :( ;)
Seriously, you have to deal with people either ignoring you because they disagree and then "responding" by explaining how they disagree, or people getting into semantics.
I think we are the wrong crowd for you. But if you're going to talk to us heed this. Your points might get across more quickly (if that's what you want) if you post them, and then, pending curiosity, you air them out for all to dry, you explain everything thoroughly and completely.
Maybe that's not the way you work, but it is a barrier you might have to overcome if you decide to share your views elsewhere.
 
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train

Guest
I can understand that we may all be tired of this, and that's OK. We're just not the right crowd, that's all.
Personally... I'm not tired of any of this...

I prefer reading, I didn't say understanding or agreeing, into both "views" presented/explained by Duke, and views of others doing the same...

"That's why we're not all the same... what a bore it would be..."
 
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Chaos Turtle

Guest
Just want to clear up a couple of things.

train - I had a feeling that that was what you were getting at. I think we agree that, for the most part, the religious establishments have a skewed and inherently flawed concept of diety and our relationship with it. It's my philosophy and approach to logic that if a concept is flawed in this way, to rely upon any of it -- particulary to rely upon in unquestionably -- is flawed reason.
Hence my bried diatribe on the nature and desires of god. ;)

DÛke (and everyone) - Bearing in mind my comment on internet misunderstadings, I want to make it clear that it has not been my intention to attack you, but to expose to you the flaws in your reasoning as I see them. I tend to take an unsympathetic approach to emotionally-charged issues, and this often comes across (even in my real flesh-and-blood daily life) as me being an a-hole.

If I seem to be getting on your case, it's because I perceive that you are intelligent enough to see reason as I do, even though you may not agree with me. Never think that I'd insist on agreement, and understand that if I didn't believe you capable of understanding my argument, I wouldn't argue with you in the first place.

(Reading back over that, it occurs to me that I might come off as patronizing or condescending. I'm not trying to be.)

Anyhoo, I'll check back in later. Got some stuff to do today that calls me away from my virtual home. :)
 
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train

Guest
I have changed my mind a bit about the school.
I thought it was optional. Even if it is not, it seems too much like it's not being done for the students (now that I read some of the details in that article).
That's why I mentioned segregation previously... Actually I don't think I discussed it, just used the word...

either way... making this a true public school is all I'm asking for... now whether or not the school system can handle problems ot arrive, that would affect civil rights, is a problem of the school system...

Teaching is one thing, but how much better would the segregated kids come out of the school?... none of us know...

"I think it's time to look into the school's integrity..."
 
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EricBess

Guest
Actually, Duke, I find you to be quite intelligent, but I certainly agree with what CT says about how you are also manipulative :D And I also think that some of your ideas are a bit "intellectual", which is not necessarily a compliment, but is also not an insult.

Anyway, the rest of my post commented on what I think you were saying. Anything I do is my "nature" to do. If I "fight my nature", it is because that is my nature, or I wouldn't have done it. So, there is no "reason" because if I apply what I would call reason, it's simply my nature to do so and it is my nature to think that what I am thinking is "reason".

If this is what you are saying, then I see your point, but I don't think that this disqualifies this as reason and perhaps this is where we agree to disagree.

For my part, this has been a very interesting discussion. It is interesting to note that I have read other boards where this subject has come up and it degenerates into a free-for-all flame-war instantly. Certainly, we don't all see things the same way, but it seems to me that this has been a very civil thread.
 
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DÛke

Guest
Eric, there you go - you understood me. :) I wont agree to disagree - I don't do that, but I have train to take care of. :D

…train…

So you want a definition of “normal.” This tells me a great deal, you know – for once, that you haven’t read what I have been saying in this thread, or in the multitude of other threads which I lash out against the abnormal. What, were you waiting for me to summarize my thoughts in such a ridiculousmanner, to such a straightforward and thoughtless appearance only so you can spit at me your trauma about the indefinition of what, exactly, is “normal”? Nevertheless, since you say you read what I say, which is quite appreciated…then I tell you to read, reread, and read cautiously and carefully.

…you also want to know what I consider to be religious. Now, with a little self-deprecation and a little self-deception on my part, I could force myself to understand how you manage to skip over my definition of what is normal, especially since I have been raving about it not just in this thread, but in any thread to which I contribute such lengthy essays. But…to not have grasped what my definition of what I refer to as "religious"? That, my dear friend, no self-deprecation, no deception, no force can make me pretend that it is “alright.” However, since it is quite simple who I refer to as religious, I’ll be happy to remind you – simply anyone who believes in the power of Christ, Christianity, Islam, Judaism, the prophets, one God, Heaven, Holiness, divinity, “light,” God’s kingdom, God’s chosen people – anyone who even accepts the notion of them even if he himself isn’t religiously active, is in my definition a degenerate species. The mere tolerance shown to them, the general positive attitude in which they are perceived – all that falls under what I call “religious.” Quite an unjust judgment, I know, but as I examine the symptoms of such people, I find them to be quite ill, poisoned by religion, even if they only tolerate the religious.

…as for freedom. That’s a subject dear and near to my heart, because I do believe in freedom, but I do not believe it to be a gift given to mankind by our lovely mother Nature. On the contrary, I believe that freedom is earned by becoming what one is – in most cases, one is born a slave, and shall remain a slave at heart even when his freedom is given to him – his physical body is free, but his instincts, his restraint, his spirit, his taste, his intellectuality are still unfree, still of a slavish heritage that Nature has given to him.

When I encounter such “free” people, who are oppressive and oppressed by their own Nature, I can’t help but wonder what has the world gone into to still allow such inborn slaves to freedom? Have we not yet learned that the unfree mustn’t be freed? Those deserving of freedom, spiritual freedom, mental freedom, freedom at its best, already possess the freedom – there is no talks about liberation, no want of freedom, no confinement, no strive to be free – one is free, one is by Nature free if Nature bestowed him the strength and spirit to be free. In such cases, rare cases by all means, one is incarnate freedom, a bashing boulder against all obstacles. On the other hand, Nature also gives many the right to be beneath, to remain enslaved, to remain ignorant to the language of freedom – to remain in a state of constant demand of freedom, without themselves knowing what freedom is. What danger! The poor oppressed class of people: oppressed and with every right to remain oppressed. He who desires freedom is unfree. Every individual man who frees himself is free by Nature – he was initially free, he simply acted on his freedom: he became what he is – he became his freedom, given to him by his Nature. The moment he frees the unfree out of generosity of heart or out of pity, out of lust for power or desire for pleasure, as is the case of “wars of liberation,” he invites a slave to masterdom. And how much would a slave value what he hadn’t earned? How much would a poor reject of Nature, a retard, the inferior in Nature, understand of that which does not belong to him, how can he become what he is not? Not at all! He will waste it away, he will push it to the limit, to absurdity, to fanatical ends…he would still cry for “freedom” – he looks at free men and he envies them, he does not want their freedom…he wants their spirit of freedom, he wants the higher and brighter light they emit, he wants their Nature! Because he does not understand freedom, because he is unfree, because he was freed but not free, because he is, returning back to his roots and his mother Nature, a slave at heart – and will remain a slave at heart even when he is given his freedom: his body is free, but his instincts, his taste, his spirit, his dignity remain vulgar and slavish. Take the modern case of Martin Luther King – a great man beyond doubt: he was free! He was free at heart. His Nature was free. Every other black man King freed is yet a Spade in Nature’s hand and never an Ace, certainly unworthy of a King.

He who has not earned his freedom is a slave. He who is not his own freedom is a slave. He who is in want of freedom is yet a slave. Look at America: a haven for all basic instincts, for anything low and retarded, everything degenerating in man is American, European, or Arabian. The “American dream” – in other words: towards the obedience of all that is basest in man by the means of complete freedom, unrestrained freedom and opinion, the right to be stupid, the right and freedom to remain stupid, yet with power! freedom of instincts, the strive after “happiness” before the strive for anything else – happiness is placed high on the scale of priorities as part of the freedoms that one may exercise, before growth, taste, intelligence, restraint – restraint removed from the meaning of freedom, when it is the first principle of freedom. The free thinks in terms of what to restrain; the freed thinks in terms of how free, and with that thought, he might even want to “increase” his freedom. Why is America such a garbage lot? Because it is the home of the freed! O America, O haven of the slaves, haven of the freed, haven for the base.

At the end, what is the burning envy that every non-American secretly experiences towards anything and everything American? It is an envy of…a life of extreme slavishness, of hasty degeneration, of degradation of man. The global condemnation of America is at bottom the desire to be an American, thus the desire to value one’s self with slaves, to enjoy the contemporary life, freedom, and right of the slaves – one needs, amongst many things, a personality of an extreme give-and-take nature, a supra-considerate nature, a tolerating attitude, a “good” attitude, and a close relation with slavish heritage…tolerating slaves for themselves, forgiving their slavish heritage, in order to be admitted to their haven of man degradation. What is it when one envies the lowest instincts in man, in such instances when the world envies Americans? – it is to lower the standard of mankind as a whole, to degrade man inside and out, to hate man, to pay irreverence towards man! With every envious eye, the standard is dragged downward…eventually everyone is at peace with one another! But not at peace with themselves. World peace – self-denial, self-deception, repression, “tolerance”: degrading the man species. The world as a slave market with no buyers whatsoever…“free slaves”…who still demand freedom and liberation.

And yet we have barn animals who call themselves free – everywhere you look, you hear the shouts and boasts of freedom! You yourself might entertain the thought that you are free, that our lovely Nature has bestowed upon you the right to be free, while on the contrary, if anything, Nature has a distinct order of rank, and not equality; masterdom and slavedom, and not tolerance and acceptance. Your proud America calls itself “free” – it has made out of freedom a necessity, a law, something given to anyone and anywho…it has blurred the lines between noble men of Nature and the inferiors, the subhumans, of Nature. Sure it has made freedom a law! And not a privilege…but a law! Everyone must be free! Man is free! “Liberate” all! The acceptance of all! The loving for all! Constant leveling of man to the point of the most unholy degradation and devaluing of man. Oh, freedom is a law – hence it is given and not earned. Hence it is demanded and spoken about, even held high as some mass-privilege, when it is the privilege of rare few. Freedom as a motto - that's the last attack against freedom before the freedom as a whole loses its value - everyone is free! Zoo animals and man-copycats, subhumans and inferiors, all labeled "Man."

...And you must realize how such empty concepts do not as of yet exist! There is no tolerance, there is no loving all, no acceptance, no consideration – there is a demand for freedom, to sustain that freedom, and even to “free the unfree.” As a consquence of this, you see people attempt to become what they are not, merely to grasp a type of Nature they are, by their Nature, blinded to. What is such rhetoric, then? empty rhetoric as “tolerance”? It is a suppressive method in which we tolerate against our will, and not out of our inborn instincts. There is a demand for tolerance, meaning that tolerance is initially lacking – meaning you are demanding that which does not exist. What there is, is an illusion of “peace” and getting-along – in the inside, such a thing is lacking, and every man who participates in such a masquerade is an internal war of desires, of instincts, mental illnesses, cancers, and above all, ignorance. And once again, all these are side effects of the attempt to be "liberated," and not liberation.
train:

Straightforward. The idea of God, the "divine," "reason," "objectivity," "for the sake of others" - are all products of the aforementioned sick men and the degenerating man species in general.
And yet you have taken part in the dissection of this product... Does that mean you believe in it also?...
Indeed I believe in it...I believe that such ideas must be banished from the dictionary of mankind. I dissect them, of course I do! I am striving to cleanse my mother Nature of this curse.
train:

Straightforward. I just write for the wrong crowd, that’s all. Ever felt that way? Like you're in the wrong crowd?
You don't write for the wrong crowd... you present ideals to a crowd that does not share theideals being presented... but finding the right crowd, one that shares the ideals, is to segregate yourself, if they are the onyl ones you wish to write for... You say yourself - "push the limits"... so why limit yourself with the right crowd... Doing as you have been is the only way an ideal can be shared, or made known to other's existence...
At this point, I can't help but recall what TICM replied to this:
TICM:

True, but a "right crowd" might work to understand what he's saying and penetrate deeper than semantics in criticism of his views.
In my words, they would at least respect me a little more for sharing my thoroughly thought thoughts, and not dismiss them as mere "opinions," like Spiderman did...or generally misunderstand what I say, or like many claim, that I am incomprehensible. Which is alright - I don't seek to blame anyone for this anymore, because, again, I'm being too "intellectual" (like EricBess said) in the wrong crowd.

One thing I confess to is being downright manipulative. So what? People are insincere, and in most cases, they are unaware of the whys behind their own choices. A religious man does not often know why he is religious other than the simple fact that he "suffers," or in the case of Christians, that he is, somehow, a "sinner." My manipulative nature has helped me see through the thickest masks known to mankind...
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
In order from Friday:

DUke:
Spiderman: but why are you separating genes from nature? It is in nature. Why are you percieving it apart from everything that it is interrelated with - and that would be everything? Why do you try to say "nature is this here," and the unnature is that there? Everything here is nature.
I'm separating the two to be precise, which is necessary when you're trying to say what you're saying. To me, if you're freely mixing genes and nature and trying to say P&P affects both, that's false and serves as your misunderstanding as what science is which in turns affects your whole argument. Obviously you disagree and see it the other way where I'm misunderstanding it :)

TICM:
That's because they don't want to support it and get the KWEH beaten out of them if it doesn't go through (and it won't, unfortunately).
What? Not sure I understood the "and get the..." part (especially the acronymn). I would read it better if it said "does go through"...

The fittest individual for lots of sex, and thus lots of children to carry genes, was probably a king, who didn't necessarily like sex with animals or collectivism or what have you.
Not necessarily, with all the inter-relations the kingdoms had between each other back then, marrying cousins and siblings and what have you. Not sure what you meant by the first part, of the Howard Stern/Jimi Hendrix reference.

This has been a (hopefully entertaining) CLIFF'S NOTES presentation of everything Dukey has said on this thread that Spiderman doesn't get.
Unfortunately, no :)

EricBess: I'm not sure I get why the article link says "Mr. Levski's Rants" when the article is supposed to be by Tammy Bruce. In any case, it's more an "opinion" than article; it doesn't give any true new facts about the school but just the author's opinion about it, which admittedly, seems to come from a good source but not being familiar with Tammy Bruce's writing, I'm a skeptic. Additionally, some of the opinions seem to be off-base in the piece; the school is supposed to be a high school, which usually means ages 15-18, not the 12-14 range it was mentioning. By then, teenagers have an inkling of what they feel :)

In any case, more objective information is needed.

Duke:
You know, I have to admit that I am obviously a terrible writer and above all hard to understand, confusing, incomprehensible. I'm tired of my stupidity. Spiderman does not understood a single word from me, and he is an intelligent man.
I'm trying! :) Like I said before though, I think you're mixing stuff together that should not be mixed and that's the basis of our confusion. And like Chaos Turtle said, you speak/write in a very convoluted way. I liked the "straightfoward" post though :)


Straightforward.

Gay men, and women, aren't normal.
Now this, I got from you and I agree. It goes along with the lines of the early purpose of sex was to reproduce. However, a one-liner like that doesn't do full justice to what comes along with it: although they are not normal, that doesn't mean they need to be picked on or beat or whatever. They're different, just like autistic or retarded or any other group that is not "normal". (That wasn't for necessarily for you but for those who might have read that I agree and immediately tried to connect it with "so I hate them).

EricBess:
For my part, this has been a very interesting discussion. It is interesting to note that I have read other boards where this subject has come up and it degenerates into a free-for-all flame-war instantly. Certainly, we don't all see things the same way, but it seems to me that this has been a very civil thread.
Totally agree. <thumbs up>

Duke:
In my words, they would at least respect me a little more for sharing my thoroughly thought thoughts, and not dismiss them as mere "opinions," like Spiderman did
Again, I only did this because of your assertion that it must be ME who is misunderstanding your implied rightful position and stance, as previously quoted. Now that you explained where you're coming from, I can see where you got your school of thought and its history, but by all means, it's certainly not "the correct one".
 
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train

Guest
Duke - I'm starting off by quoting myself:
I prefer reading, I didn't say understanding or agreeing, into both "views" presented/explained by Duke, and views of others doing the same...
Now...

you say you "lash out against the abnormal."
It may be abnormal to oyu, but not all of us... and we(the us) don't all have the same perspectives on topics...

Nevertheless, since you say you read what I say, which is quite appreciated…then I tell you to read, reread, and read cautiously and carefully.
Reading and comprehension do not go hand in hand...

But…to not have grasped what my definition of what I refer to as "religious"? That, my dear friend, no self-deprecation, no deception, no force can make me pretend that it is “alright.” ... of Christ, Christianity, Islam, Judaism, the prophets, one God, Heaven, Holiness, divinity, “light,” God’s kingdom, God’s chosen people – anyone who even accepts the notion of them even if he himself isn’t religiously active, is in my definition a degenerate species. The mere tolerance shown to them, the general positive attitude in which they are perceived – all that falls under what I call “religious.”
So religious does not include the unapathetic philosopher???...

So you view true freedom as intangible to most beings?...


I am striving to cleanse my mother Nature of this curse.
Is this a case of Duke being religious(asking Duke)?... Almost sounds paganistic...
 
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DÛke

Guest
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Spiderman - you have got to be the most picky person I have ever had a conversation with. Usually people just get what I'm trying to say fast. :) But you like to go further. I like that. So let me ask you this then: you believe that there is nature and natural, correct? If you speak in such language, it must mean that there is an antithesis in your language, something not of nature, something "unnatural." Do you mind telling me what you call nature and what is "unnature"? If you can't make the distinction, which in my opinion no human should since we are being in Nature and not being apart from Nature, then you will have to re-explain to me why you choose to set apart genes from the whole that we call "nature," when genes are a part of nature and not something you can point out to and say "here it is, there is a gene, there is nature," as in indicating that the gene itself is surrounded by a mass of some unnatural organs or that man is surrounded by unnatural environment. I for one have no definition of Nature - how can a dog or a rat or an insect for that matter make the distinction between its own being as a creature apart from Nature, when it is that Nature invariably? Only one higher than itself can "see" it's Nature. Man is man - he is not higher than himself. He can't see what belongs to his Nature, and what does not. If it is a requirement, than we need a God to do such an observation, or someone higher than man…or a psychologist. And even with the presence of a psychologist, we will only penetrate deeper, but not unlock the door, key, meaning, and substance of our Nature. Because we are being our being in every moment we are alive – we can’t look at ourselves from a distance far away enough to identify our own being.

…now, train – no, what I have been calling “religious” does not include “unapathetic philosopher,” unless, that is, he accepts or tolerates, or believes in God or religion, or any of the aforementioned substances, or more honestly, non-substances. I don’t care who a man or a women is, as soon as he or she begins to accept the fact that there are people (and my using the word "people" here is quite polite) out there who “believe” or “accept,” that I refer to as “religious," or at least being in par with what is religious, or being as irresponsible or careless as the religious, hence they are willing to "accept" and not, say, attempt to live their lives in an endless argument, until one prevails.

And yes, I view freedom as intangible to most beings. Not that it is their fault! I do not like to point fingers in this matter – it is that they do not posses that “freedom” instinct. It’s it not their fault that it is intangible for them, but it is a consequence of them being born to be lead, oppressed, shaped, enslaved, or generally used whether in a “good” or “evil” manner.

Finally, when we first started this discussion, I pointed out how my arguments are free of any religious acid, that includes paganism. Paganism is a sort of rejection of God or Christianity or what have you. I do not reject or deny – there is no substance to reject. There is no foundation whatsoever. What I meant by “cleansing my Nature” is quite simple and hopefully not manipulative: I’m trying to put an end to such empty practices because they are empty practices that have no relevance for being on this Earth; cleansing life as a whole (which is ruled by Nature in any event) from religious acid. But you bring an interesting point – Paganism “denies” some God, which is equally “religious” in my opinion, since it presupposes something only to deny it. I do not deny God, per se, I deny it when people say they “believe,” I deny it when they talk about “God,” I deny the idea of God that has been founded in the past two thousand years, the practice, the terms, and every disease (metaphorically speaking!) that spouted as a result of such beliefs. There could be a God out there for all I know...but as soon as I demand for the relevance of such a being's existence, I see nothing but a form of escape this life, to rid one's self of "sinfulness," to find "liberation," to be utterly irresponsible, weak, and degenerate in any case. The religious comes in terms with his "God" through "suffering" and need, and not through inquiry and curiosity. Descartes, for example, needed his God as an "origin" of things. He didn't need him for psychological reasons. Pascal, on the other hand, did not need God philosophically – he needed God as a mean to "liberate" man from his wretchedness, because man is a “sinner” - and in that there comes countless assumptions. Philosophically, although God can't be "proven," it's not a dangerous idea, or at least not as dangerous when it is adapted psychologically.

Someone like Eric tries to tie God and us, as in "God being the father," God as a "father" figure. I don't reject these - I simply have seen no reason whatsoever to make such assertions, other than the previously mentioned symptoms of degeneration. When a moment comes where I find myself in need of some higher power, it usually comes from weariness in this life, a sense of giving up, surrender, resignation, fleeing...that's the moment where, undoubtedly, I could find my “faith.” And that’s the moment in which all faithful men have found their faith – when, amidst their pain and suffering, the idea of God instantly became like a ray of light in a gloomy sky…you can never overlook the psychological alleviation the idea itself represents, and that “moment of truth” becomes to them a “moment of finding faith,” or “finding God,” or “seeing the light.” In any event, those are the good believers. There are believers out there who don't even see this false light! Whereas our friend Eric here seems to have certainly felt it. So let's have a cheer for that...
 
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train

Guest
And yes, I view freedom as intangible to most beings.
Okay - see... I'm really happy here, because I was able to understand the point you were making. Actually - understand your view on something...

Keep 'em coming...

Now - on the basis of this thread - and what I'm undrestanding...

Duke - Do you view the school, as it is being set up, as an obstacle or barrier in front of an individual attending there's "true freedom" or do you think it gives them a better chance, or spring board, to obtain their true freedom?...

- This is not geared towards the school, and the basis for it's founding - but the "benefits" the individuals could receive from the school...
 
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DÛke

Guest
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I think the school is extremely superfluous. The "oppressed" homosexuals who need such a school, or who prefer such schools, or are in any way in favor of such schools, are truly worthy of the status "oppressed" or..."mistreatment" if you want to call it. It does not give them any freedom whatsoever. In fact, the entire school's existence is a proof that these people are not free, and the school - a symbol of unfreedom. When one is free, one is freedom. One needs no "spring board," no distinct treatment, no "head start." They are unable to obtain "true" freedom, thus they need a school where they might find it.

But as I mentioned in my dissection of freedom previously, there is no such thing as obtaining or finding freedom. There is no sense of liberation.

One is free. Otherwise, one remains unfree...

If you want to talk "benefits," than be my guest. There is no benefit. It's a dwelling place for those who, perhaps in another world, are essentially slavish and unworthy of such distinct treatment. Yes. They are that low.
 
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Thallid Ice Cream Man

Guest
Originally posted by Spiderman
TICM:

What? Not sure I understood the "and get the..." part (especially the acronymn). I would read it better if it said "does go through"...
KWEH = ****. Censor as you like with animal/FF-monster noises. There is no acronym.

Originally posted by Spiderman
Not necessarily, with all the inter-relations the kingdoms had between each other back then, marrying cousins and siblings and what have you. Not sure what you meant by the first part, of the Howard Stern/Jimi Hendrix reference.
[/B]
I was naming random people who have/had a lot of sex. (Maybe Howard wishes he did.)
Meanwhile, kings and queens were inbred hicks, yes. But they (and the nobles, to be fair) were sex symbols.
In fact, the fact that you brought up that point will help even more in trying to help you understand what I was talking about.
Kings and queens and lords and ladies were symbols, if not of reproductive power, of masculinity and femininity. I bet this happened in thousands of tribes and bands and chiefdoms and kingdoms around the world. In Europe, however, these leaders were inbred, and they were not particularly strong fighters. They were not attractive for physical reasons, but for other reasons. Yet they still were able to have lots of sex and sire/bear lots of childrens (except if the women died in childbirth).
A culture's average perception of who is sexy differs from that of another culture, or from that of a culture in a different time. The sexy person should -- as far as Darwinian notions of biology are concerned -- be very healthy and fit to survive and bear lots of children. But those people are not always sexy -- not directly. And the staid family person is not particularly sexy in this overall time.
An increasingly sexy group of people are ravers, or extreme sports people, or musicians, or bikers, or others like them (and there are many many subgroups of people who behave almost the same way in this respect).
These are people who focus on one aspect of life that makes them feel free -- not freed, free (by DÛke's definition). It is only temporary, of course, because their behavior is exhausting and demands attention and can not be done all the time. But they are free sometimes. It is a cheap substitute for the search for true freedom, but as most people don't even look, these people have a slight edge in my book.
These people are not necessarily healthy and a lot of them aren't healthy at all, but they are symbols.
Gay/bisexual people will be able to be symbols in larger numbers soon as people gradually over time become more tolerant of homosexuality.
Until then there's David Bowie and Elton John, I guess. I'm sure there are more but I can't think of them.
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
DUke: That was actually a fairly clear post :) I think I understood most of it.

you believe that there is nature and natural, correct? If you speak in such language, it must mean that there is an antithesis in your language, something not of nature, something "unnatural." Do you mind telling me what you call nature and what is "unnature"? If you can't make the distinction, which in my opinion no human should since we are being in Nature and not being apart from Nature, then you will have to re-explain to me why you choose to set apart genes from the whole that we call "nature," when genes are a part of nature and not something you can point out to and say "here it is, there is a gene, there is nature," as in indicating that the gene itself is surrounded by a mass of some unnatural organs or that man is surrounded by unnatural environment.
Hmmm... well, first off, I'm not sure "nature" and "natural" can be used interchangeably. But to answer your question directly, of what is nature vs unnature (very weird word, by the way), thinking about it right now, I would have to say that pretty much everything is "nature" since they... exist. Whether they are "natural" is a slightly different matter... some things exist now that have been "artificially" made, such as clones. Something occurring in "nature" yet is not "normally expected", such as a mutation of a gene, could be considered unnatural simply because it's in the minority, but still "nature" because it did occur in the regular scheme of life. So I'm not sure if I came across clearly there, but I guess I'm trying to make a subtle distinction between "nature" and "natural". The latter is more perception, of what society has decided (which is most likely arbitrary :) )

But as for the separation of genes and nature, the way you seem to be using them, genes are the foundation in one's self, what one possesses when they come into being. And you can look at such a gene under a microscope, say. Nature is how one develops in their environment, making use of those genes or building blocks (or not, in some cases), but cannot be "seen" or touched.

TICM: Animal noises - ooooooh :)

I think you're attributing kings and queens as sex symbols for the wrong reasons. I don't think they bred a lot; a look at their family history will suffice. Heck, look at Catherine the Great, a woman renowned for her sexual appetite yet didn't exactly give birth oodles of times. They were viewed more as sex symbols for the power they represented, which has not changed as the years have gone by; people today in power are viewed as sex symbols. Sports stars, politicians, you name it.

I agree that the view on who or what is sexy as changed; it used to be pale skin was desirable (more so than now) 'cause a tan meant you were a common laborer. Or more plump women were desirable (not sure about men) - just look at Renaissance paintings.
 
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Thallid Ice Cream Man

Guest
The point is that they could have had a lot of sex if they wanted to.
I mentioned David Bowie and Elton John before... They could have sired dozens of illegitimate children with female groupies, but they didn't because they're gay. Gay sex symbols within the gay community also aren't going to have a lot of children (and of course surrogate motherhood isn't very easy), but they're still sex symbols.
 
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