Our Best & Brightest Children...

[Killer Joe]

ought to become teachers, right?

I think so. What with all the talk lately about how the American school systems are failing I would think that we ought to encouage our best and brightest to become teachers.

 

[turgy22]

No.

Our teachers don't necessarily need to be the best (whatever that means) or brightest. They simply need to be dedicated to their profession and knowledgeable enough to be able to properly explain and pass on whatever information they are tasked with providing to their students.

 

[Spiderman]

I agree.

 

[Oversoul]

I've had some distinctly bad teachers who were of above average intelligence as far as I could tell. I've also had some distinctly bad teachers who were morons. I know several bright people who would make terrible teachers. One of my best friends was going to a university with the intention of becoming a history teacher, but I always told him he'd hate being a teacher. He eventually switched to majoring in bureaucracy and seems pretty happy with that. All of the best teachers I had, besides being bright and knowledgeable, also seemed to have a particular flavor of madness. Perhaps as though the prospect of sharing knowledge, of taking concepts, even the ones that are difficult, and conveying them to students, even the ones that really struggle, is a fun sort of puzzle to work out, to play with and explore. Or something. I'm no mind-reader. That's just what it seemed like to me. For all I know, every single one of my teachers I've ever had was secretly fantasizing about bringing a meat cleaver down on my head repeatedly...

 

[rokapoke]

For all I know, every single one of my teachers I've ever had was secretly fantasizing about bringing a meat cleaver down on my head repeatedly...

As a first-semester college professor, I can tell you that some students magnetically attract such feelings.

And I agree that intelligence is no measure of ability to teach. If you have innate intelligence, you may be unable to relate to the students who struggle, and therefore may be unable to convey the material to them. Just a thought.

 

[Killer Joe]

Good. So what's the solution?

Is there a solution? IS the American education system 'broken'?
Lots of talk this week about education and the responsibility the teachers have to get our kids to make the grade. Aren't parents suppose to make that happen or at least be accounted for in the process? MERIT PAY? Why? What about "Can't teach what don't want to learn"? How do would you use merit pay in THOSE cases?

 

[train]

I think they should do whatever they want... I feel putting our best and brightest into teaching prevents the rest of the economy's industries from being able to advance as they would normally.

 

[rokapoke]

Is there a solution? IS the American education system 'broken'?

There are a lot of "American [fill-in-the-blank] systems" that are broken. I'm sure the same is true across the globe. And I imagine that most people who are out of school now (us old farts) feel that it wasn't as bad when we were in school.

The way I see it (opinion alert!), there are a lot of societal changes that have been occurring to gradually alter the expectations for what an education should get you. For one, parents find that video games and television make it much easier to have quiet children than proper parenting. Every time my wife and I go to a restaurant, we see kids playing video games while they wait to be seated... and while they wait for their food... and between bites... and we say to each other, "never in our household!"

Secondly, a lot of people see education as a necessary evil -- think athletes on this one. I remember a student who was a year older than me in high school, who had a lot of talent on the football field. He was a terrible (and that's being generous) student, and ended up (so the story went) flunking out of Michigan State, thereby losing the "scholarship" (there's a misnomer for you) and transferring down to a nowhere school to finish his "education," his NFL dreams dashed. I honestly think that a lot of young people with an ounce of talent get big-fish-small-pond syndrome and think they've got the ticket to NFL/NBA/MLB millions, and that education is for nerds. I also spent a year as a walk-on with the University of Pittsburgh football team, and specifically remember some of the players asking around for what easy classes they could take to pad their schedules.

So the moral of my rant here is this: you get out of your education what you put into it. And your interest in education more than likely comes from your parents. If you have educated parents (as I do), the expectation for academic success is likely high, and your achievement will (likely) follow. If you have blue-collar parents who want a so-called "better life" for you, they may ingrain the right academic motivation in you, and you have a good chance at academic success. But if your parents have limited interest in what you do (too much video games, etc., too little caring and talking and spending time on homework and general parenting goodness) or they let you believe that the only way you'll succeed is through a non-academic route, you're going nowhere.

Rant over. Please return to your regularly-scheduled light debate.

 

[DarthFerret]

I mostly agree with Rokapoke here. But to address the topic of this forum, I think it is simple. I would probably make a pretty decent teacher (I have enough intelligence, not genius, but enough, and I am a proffessional public speaker/trainer), however I would never consider that as a profession due to the limits in payscale. Yes, teachers make a 'decent' living, however, in my current proffession, the potential is there (with about 10-15 more years of experience and another 1-2 certifications) to make 6 figures a year. I have not heard of any teacher ever having that potential. My first employment in my field started between 40-45k a year, and keeps going up. Pretty sure (though not positive) that teachers do not start there. In addition, if we would raise the pay-scale (aside from the funding issues it would cause) I think that there would need to be a somewhat higher degree of education needed in the profession. Yes, to teach a first or second grade class, you don't need as much actual knowledge about the subjects, but maybe some psychology or socialogy emphasis would be good. To teach the higher grade levels, more knowledge is needed obviously, but maybe a different type of social training would need to be emphasised there. It boggles me that there is no difference between the teaching degrees of a High School teacher and a Kindergarden teacher. This may be one one of the factors in our declining school system.

Of course, a bit off topic, another decline of our school systems is "standardized testing". Texas is severely guilty of this and actually bases school funding on the results of this testing. What this ultimately does is cause the cirriculum to be devised solely around this test and not around the true needs for moving on to college education, or becoming a productive member of the workforce.

A third issue to me is the lack of practical training in our school system. Right now, yes, computer and software engineers are comming out pretty good, but in the near future we will be saturated with people with those skills, and yet a lot of people wont know how to do real world work. This includes things such as: Automobile repair, welding, construction, agriculture, carpentry, etc... I see this as a problem. You may or may not realize that a certified automobile technician now can make a pretty good living (heard of them starting out at least $22/hr or more). Same goes for many other physical skills. However, this is just my own personal rant, and you should not feel compelled to respond to this point (unless you really want to).

 

[Mooseman]

As a former teacher..... Teaching isn't all about getting the information to the students, that's rote learning and is only good in limited circumstances.
Schools should focus on teaching students to learn. Think about how you learned to play magic, you didn't go to a school, (at least I hope not), you had someone explain it and read the rules and the cards , then tried games....... you were able to learn to play. You gained most of those skills in school. Reciting dates or formulas didn't really help you much in this endeavor.

Being a good teacher requires empathy with your students, dedication to the process and learning how to teach as an ongoing process.
Standardized test that require a school to put too much resources into teaching to the test, either are done poorly or the school is run poorly. Standardized teas should only be to determine if there are holes in the curriculum, not to base funding decisions on. (IMHO)

I do not like the idea of huge centralized schools, there is too much politics in it. Where I live and because of it I live here, is that the school district is small and personal. Controlled by the community (schoolboard). My kids haven't had over 100 students in their graduating class. I pay higher school taxes, but it is worth it and my kids all graduated years ago.

Teaching is not about being the brightest or most educated, but about being able to impart that knowledge and love of learning to others.

No one has come up with a way to evaluate teachers perfectly, but merit pay? Is that for those in the bad districts... like combat pay?

DF: IMO, Texas is a good example of what not to do in primary and secondary education......

Yes, parents are a huge part of the education process

 

[turgy22]

Schools should focus on teaching students to learn.

Hate to get into a philosophical discussion here, because I understand what you're trying to say, but how can one teach someone to learn? You would need to learn how to learn, but if someone can't (or doesn't want to) learn in the first place, then they can't learn how to learn.

 

[rokapoke]

Hate to get into a philosophical discussion here, because I understand what you're trying to say, but how can one teach someone to learn? You would need to learn how to learn, but if someone can't (or doesn't want to) learn in the first place, then they can't learn how to learn.

Chicken, egg. Egg, chicken.

 

[Killer Joe]

Make mine scrambled...

 

[DarthFerret]

Yes, scrambled chicken is awesome!

 

[train]

Chicken, egg. Egg, chicken.

Actually, the basics of learning are instinctual... through the 5 senses and derived logic... These typically develop into common sense...

Adapting those to "learning methods" in music such as Suzuki, Kodaly, Dalcroze - etc., curricula are developed. Trying to have individuals adhere to these methods is where some issues begin to occur and it seems some can't learn while others can.

 

[DarthFerret]

However, different methods of learning exist for different children (and adults) and that is what a teacher is for. To assist a child in finding out what type of learning he/she can apply then in providing the knowledge to be learned. I personally, have a pretty poor memory if I am told something or am lectured to. However, if I write something down (especially more than once) then I will typically remember it. Other people are visual learners and need the visual aids to recall information. I am sure we could come up with a ton of learning methods. So, yes, I do believe that pretty much everyone (excluding those with some type of syndrome that prevents it) has the ability to learn. They may not have the desire (hmm...parenting much?), and they may not have the opportunity (hmm...teachers and schools on this one), but they have the ability.

 

[EricBess]

I agree with Mooseman and DF on this one. A good teacher doesn't necessarily need to be the brightest or most knowlegable about a subject. A good teacher is one that knows how to take the subject and make it interesting to the students so they will want to learn. At the same time, recognizing that different kids learn in different ways and are able to adapt their approach to the student.

I personally think merit pay is the only way to make sure you have good teachers. I don't know if I mean the same by "merit pay" as you do, but if there is a teacher that is good at reaching students, then why shouldn't they get paid more than the teacher that just shows up and is a glorified baby-sitter each day? Tenure too often means that a teacher doesn't care whether or not the children learn. Certainly, there are good teachers in our system, but unfortunately, our system doesn't currently have a way to distinguish between the good and bad teachers or to do anything about the bad.

Recently (I believe here in CA), there was a proposal to start rewarding good teachers with bonuses. It was ultimately rejected because it was felt that the teachers that didn't receive the bonuses might feel bad.

Too much time is spent looking at why the students are failing and not enough time is spent looking at why teachers are incentivized the way they are (or aren't as the case may be).

 

[Killer Joe]

Good teachers is NOT sexy news so we never hear about them.

"Teachers are bad and greedy" - Front Page

"Excellent teacher takes students to new levels" - page 6 but will be eliminated if the local high school football team wins tomorrow.

Good teachers far outweigh bad ones.

 

[DarthFerret]

Quoting Eric Bess
Recently (I believe here in CA), there was a proposal to start rewarding good teachers with bonuses. It was ultimately rejected because it was felt that the teachers that didn't receive the bonuses might feel bad.

Go cry me a river! Seriously. If you want ton know what is wrong with our world today, this is probably up there on the top ten list. Oh no, someone might feel bad, left out, depressed, etc.... (I know you were not saying this as your opinion, so don't take this as an attack on you, just an attack on the concept in general). If we can spend less effort (or no effort) on trying to make people feel good about themselves, and more effort on improving our school system we would be a lot better off. I get so tired of people wanting to play touchy feely feelgood about everything. Stop worrying about what might offend someone and start taking actions that have true meaningful value.

 

[turgy22]

There's a pretty easy solution to the "some teachers might feel bad" problem. The ones who perform the best get bonuses. And everyone else can have one of these: