Gas/Oil
- Thread starter Killer Joe
- Start date
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Astranbrulth
Guest
mooseman: "The shear chaos and uncertainty from the Iranian President and their council is keeping the price up"
Well, the man HAS made some pretty irresponsible statements, that is true. I think that national leaders should be more circumspect in what they say. The question of course, is, whether we ought to take some of those statements seriously. The Iranian president is not a dictator. There are numerous, more moderate and rational forces that also come into play that we don't necessarily see in action.
mooseman: "they would use nukes when they saw fit and damn the effects it would have on the world..."
I disagree. Straight off, there is no hard evidence that Iran IS looking for nukes. Secondly, let's assume that they had them. Who would they use them against? The only logical target is Israel, and Israel is quite capable of melting Iran into a nice glass sculpture with its own nukes. The Iranians are NOT nutters. They are actually very clever and calculating people, and getting themselves annihilated I assure you is NOT on their agenda. For example, the Gulf War between Iran and Iraq came to and end after the US made overt moves to intervene on the Iraqi side. Ayatollah Khomenei, who was certainly more radical than the current Iranian leadership, backed down, saying that the Islamic Revolution was in danger of being extinguished, and that it was better to face a defeat than to lose it.
mooseman: "Shale oil, corn/cane ethanol, are fine substitutes for petro, but not for long."
True, the oil-from coal / shale solution is likewise a temporary fix. The ethanol solution is likewise only a partial solution, because we simply don't, IMO, have enough landmass to both grow adequate food AND fuel to run things at the present rate, when oil production declines. Hydrogen cells and renewable energy are, as you said, better long term solutions.
Well, the man HAS made some pretty irresponsible statements, that is true. I think that national leaders should be more circumspect in what they say. The question of course, is, whether we ought to take some of those statements seriously. The Iranian president is not a dictator. There are numerous, more moderate and rational forces that also come into play that we don't necessarily see in action.
mooseman: "they would use nukes when they saw fit and damn the effects it would have on the world..."
I disagree. Straight off, there is no hard evidence that Iran IS looking for nukes. Secondly, let's assume that they had them. Who would they use them against? The only logical target is Israel, and Israel is quite capable of melting Iran into a nice glass sculpture with its own nukes. The Iranians are NOT nutters. They are actually very clever and calculating people, and getting themselves annihilated I assure you is NOT on their agenda. For example, the Gulf War between Iran and Iraq came to and end after the US made overt moves to intervene on the Iraqi side. Ayatollah Khomenei, who was certainly more radical than the current Iranian leadership, backed down, saying that the Islamic Revolution was in danger of being extinguished, and that it was better to face a defeat than to lose it.
mooseman: "Shale oil, corn/cane ethanol, are fine substitutes for petro, but not for long."
True, the oil-from coal / shale solution is likewise a temporary fix. The ethanol solution is likewise only a partial solution, because we simply don't, IMO, have enough landmass to both grow adequate food AND fuel to run things at the present rate, when oil production declines. Hydrogen cells and renewable energy are, as you said, better long term solutions.
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Astranbrulth
Guest
Here is a pretty good article on Iran, a strike against Iran and the likely consequences:
http://in.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idINL2567750420080625?pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=0
http://in.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idINL2567750420080625?pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=0
I think they mean how the whole sugar cane is used in the production of the ethanol, as opposed to only part of the corn plant, as well as the ease with which the sugars can be extracted from the cane. You prolly DO net about 10x the ethanol out of a given quantity of sugar cane as opposed to corn, though I haven't actually read anything like that myself.Oversoul said:
Too bad we don't grow as much sugar cane around here in the U.S. as they do out in Brazil, eh?
Mooseman
Isengar Tussle
I didn't say the Iranian people were nutters... I said that "this new group of governments are run by nutters and they would use nukes when they saw fit and damn the effects it would have on the world....." Meaning the government, not the people.Astranbrulth said:
TomB: Maybe we can get our government to spend our tax dollars tearing down vacant/condemned houses and planting sugar cane, instead of whatever else they waste it on......
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Astranbrulth
Guest
Got it, Mooseman. Sorry for misinterpreting you.
Mooseman
Isengar Tussle
OK.... here is a question....
There is a car (Citroen C1 3 door) that gets an average of 61 mpg..... but is not sold in the US...... WTF???? It's only about $16,000 (8095 quid)
Does anyone know anything about this car (you non-USA guys and girls)?
Is this normal for cars in Europe? Anywhere but the US?
I'd buy one in a heartbeat...... that's about 2.2x what I get from my Neon.....
I definitely get the feeling that our market is not that free and easy.......
There is a car (Citroen C1 3 door) that gets an average of 61 mpg..... but is not sold in the US...... WTF???? It's only about $16,000 (8095 quid)
Does anyone know anything about this car (you non-USA guys and girls)?
Is this normal for cars in Europe? Anywhere but the US?
I'd buy one in a heartbeat...... that's about 2.2x what I get from my Neon.....
I definitely get the feeling that our market is not that free and easy.......
Killer Joe
New member
The 'mindset' for a such a car is not in the American psyche. I'm sure there's no better (and real) answer for that.
I don't know what model the car is, but whatever is the one that's like half the size of a compact now, is just making its way over here... I think before there just wasn't a market for it, plus parking is much worse in Europe than here that they needed a small car... but I have seen one on the road in Maryland in the past month or so.
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DarthFerret
Guest
Moose. You do know that the Prius is rated at 66 Mpg right? My Honda (retailed at $16,000 give or take) gets 40-45 Hwy.
Also, one thing to consider is that even if the car would cost the equivilant of $16,000 overseas the cost of shipping the car here (or even the parts neccessary to build it) would raise that price up by quite a bit. I have a few customers in the shipping industry, and have seen how much it costs to send some materials back and forth (they genearlly do it by weight...unless it is neccessary to use volume instead).
Also, one thing to consider is that even if the car would cost the equivilant of $16,000 overseas the cost of shipping the car here (or even the parts neccessary to build it) would raise that price up by quite a bit. I have a few customers in the shipping industry, and have seen how much it costs to send some materials back and forth (they genearlly do it by weight...unless it is neccessary to use volume instead).
Mooseman
Isengar Tussle
Really...... their web site says MSRP of $21,500 and EPA MPG 48/45.....DarthFerret said:
If it cost so much to ship, why not start a plant in the US..... Ford seems to have a few it's not using and build here? Where was your Honda built? Japan?
What is the MPG in the city?
Also, this isn't a Hybrid car, just one that gets fantastic MPG....... 63 highway and like 59 city..... that is just amazing.....
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EricBess
Guest
My wife spent some time in East Germany and they had cars there that were effectively made out of particle board. I'm not saying that's the case, here, just that the posibility exists that a car that is light-weight enough to get that gas milliage might not be street legal here. I really don't know, though.
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DarthFerret
Guest
I purchased my Honda Civic in 2005 (right after the hurricanes that devestated New Orleans and Houston). It was put together here in America (I forget which plant) and 95% of all the parts were either US or Canadian. Dont know if any of you know this but if you look on the Monroni Label of most new cars, you will see a listing of where the vehicle was put together and a percentage listing of where the parts came from. At the time, my Honda Civic LX went for about 16,900 MSRP and we all know that you never pay MSRP for a vehicle. (If you do, send me a plane ticket and I will come negotiate the price of your vehicle for you. I am in sales and know the "trick of the trade" ) In addition, my Civic is not a hybrid. It is just a simple Civic LX and I have actually gaged my milage several times.
One other step that we have to conform to in America is the EPA. With all this new "global warming" talk (and yes, I do not believe in it one iota), the price to get most cars "Americanized" is insane. The emmission standards are set such that improving vehicle mileage is a bit difficult from what I understand. There are also other regulations for vehicles in America (some of these deal with our poorly constructed and maintaned roads, for which we have to raise the ground clearance of our cars for safety).
That being said, I still think that the automotive industry is stuck way behind where they should be. If you look at computer technology and development, as well as other industries, they have advanced by leaps and bounds, while the cost of thier product has gone significantly down. The automobile industry does not seem to be able to do that. I don't know if it is a lack of R & D, or just a willingness to stagnate that has them stuck in this rut, but I figure in the next 10-15 years we will start seeing vast improvements in performance, cost, and fuel economy.
) In addition, my Civic is not a hybrid. It is just a simple Civic LX and I have actually gaged my milage several times. One other step that we have to conform to in America is the EPA. With all this new "global warming" talk (and yes, I do not believe in it one iota), the price to get most cars "Americanized" is insane. The emmission standards are set such that improving vehicle mileage is a bit difficult from what I understand. There are also other regulations for vehicles in America (some of these deal with our poorly constructed and maintaned roads, for which we have to raise the ground clearance of our cars for safety).
That being said, I still think that the automotive industry is stuck way behind where they should be. If you look at computer technology and development, as well as other industries, they have advanced by leaps and bounds, while the cost of thier product has gone significantly down. The automobile industry does not seem to be able to do that. I don't know if it is a lack of R & D, or just a willingness to stagnate that has them stuck in this rut, but I figure in the next 10-15 years we will start seeing vast improvements in performance, cost, and fuel economy.
Oversoul
The Tentacled One
I don't know much about what they're driving in East Germany, but it is possible to make cars really light that are actually also quite safe. I think I already posted the one video with the prototype cars in it...EricBess said:
Don't believe global warming is happening, don't believe it's anthropogenic, or don't believe that the EPA standards for emissions will help?DarthFerret said:
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DarthFerret
Guest
I do not believe that we humans are responsible for global warming, and I think it is very arrogant to believe that we are. If you take the age of the earth (some sy 10,000 years, others say millions, but whatever) and compare it to the age of man, you will see that we are but a spec. Now lets take it a step further and start looking at the last 100 years or so, when we really started to industrialize and pollute (actually started heavy industry around the 40's but still..for math purposes will overestimate to 100 years). If the earth is 10,000 yrs old then it is only 1% of the time that we been here. If it is millions, that is math that I refuse to even think about. Regardless, according to records, we have had ups and downs in our global temperatures. Some ages were really cold (Ice ages) and some were really warm. I am positive that we are not having as much of an impact on climate as some "environmentalists" say that we are. A lot of it is propoganda.
As a side note, isn't it really funny how, about 10 years ago if I remember right, the environmentalist wakkos of that time were saying that we were going to run out of fossil fuels in 10 yrs? hmm...Still have them now. Part of it is that there are a lot of "Alarmists" in the world that love to be worried about something. And they love to make people in general feel guilty about being alive, or about having certain things.
The bottom line is that, oil is being produced all the time by the earth itself, trees are still growing, it still snows in the north and there is still a rainy season in the rain forests. (Speaking from a Northern Hemisphere point of view of course.) The earth still spins on it's axis. The icecaps will still slough off icebergs, and then create more ice to replace it. And there is nothing that we mere humans can do about it (other than possibly a nuclear hollocost .. but that is never gonna happen either...)
Oh yeah, by the way, Al Gore did not invent the internet either.
As a side note, isn't it really funny how, about 10 years ago if I remember right, the environmentalist wakkos of that time were saying that we were going to run out of fossil fuels in 10 yrs? hmm...Still have them now. Part of it is that there are a lot of "Alarmists" in the world that love to be worried about something. And they love to make people in general feel guilty about being alive, or about having certain things.
The bottom line is that, oil is being produced all the time by the earth itself, trees are still growing, it still snows in the north and there is still a rainy season in the rain forests. (Speaking from a Northern Hemisphere point of view of course.) The earth still spins on it's axis. The icecaps will still slough off icebergs, and then create more ice to replace it. And there is nothing that we mere humans can do about it (other than possibly a nuclear hollocost .. but that is never gonna happen either...)
Oh yeah, by the way, Al Gore did not invent the internet either.