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DÛke
Guest
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Well, I believe that freedom + self-determination = happiness. They're not happy, AKA the U.S. didn't do anything, or did it? Oil.
Well, I believe that freedom + self-determination = happiness. They're not happy, AKA the U.S. didn't do anything, or did it? Oil.
Well, there's the problem right there. You're making a conclusion based on what appears to be a debatable premise.
When you make a statement like that, the only things I can see someone arguing is:
Only if the statement "We made the Afghan people happy" can you follow with "They're not happy".
When you make a statement like that, the only things I can see someone arguing is:
- Did the US in fact "free" the majority of people? And even then you have to define what "free" means to get any meaning out of that (I presume from being under the thumb of the Taliban)
- Did the US return them to "some degree" of self-determination, more terms which need further definition, mostly self-determination, which I take means setting the rules of eac h province/town/village as opposed from all edicts coming from the "central ruler".
Only if the statement "We made the Afghan people happy" can you follow with "They're not happy".
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Gizmo
Guest
I dont remember the happiness of the Afghan population being among the wests war aims.
I think for the most part the Afghan population sees the removal of the Taliban as a good thing... but that the government they have is far from perfect and that they still live in pretty much the most desolate and war-ravaged country on earth and yet are not recieving aid in the quantities they would like to see.
The Afghanis wont be happy until they see concrete progress and improvement in their quality of life, and that won`t happen overnight. Removing the Taliban was a step towards achieving that however.
BUT
Does improving the quality of life for Afghan people really justifiy destroying their government through force of arms?
I think for the most part the Afghan population sees the removal of the Taliban as a good thing... but that the government they have is far from perfect and that they still live in pretty much the most desolate and war-ravaged country on earth and yet are not recieving aid in the quantities they would like to see.
The Afghanis wont be happy until they see concrete progress and improvement in their quality of life, and that won`t happen overnight. Removing the Taliban was a step towards achieving that however.
BUT
Does improving the quality of life for Afghan people really justifiy destroying their government through force of arms?
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DÛke
Guest
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No. No. No. It would not make them happy. This is the kind of unhappiness I'm talking about.
DÛke, are you saying that the Afghan people were happier under Taliban rule? How about the women? Were they happier being oppressed like that?
Or are you just saying that they're depressed 'cause they're in another war, and this one is being sponsored by the hated American infidels...
Or are you just saying that they're depressed 'cause they're in another war, and this one is being sponsored by the hated American infidels...
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DÛke
Guest
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Read a book or two. You wont be confused then.
Read a book or two. You wont be confused then.
Or would any "book or two" do? 
Oh, and by the way DÛke? My exact statement was:
The bit about "being able to free the majority of the Afghan people, and return to them some degree of self-determination" was my own opinion, based on what I've read and seen here, in the American media (cue Multani). Maybe it is true, what you say, and I shouldn't be feeling any better about the whole thing, but until you can prove otherwise this is how I'm taking it.
Please understand that the alternative is a continuation of the blind, unreasoning hatred we all felt a few months ago...
Oh, and by the way DÛke? My exact statement was:
Nowhere in there did I say anything about the happiness quotient of the Afghan people - I said it is helping our people to feel better.
The bit about "being able to free the majority of the Afghan people, and return to them some degree of self-determination" was my own opinion, based on what I've read and seen here, in the American media (cue Multani). Maybe it is true, what you say, and I shouldn't be feeling any better about the whole thing, but until you can prove otherwise this is how I'm taking it.
Please understand that the alternative is a continuation of the blind, unreasoning hatred we all felt a few months ago...
S
Svenmonkey
Guest
Look at the first post in this thread, then look at what you people are doing now. Somehow you people (Duke and Tomb mostly) turned this thread into exactly what Multani was saying happened to most threads. It's kinda funny, but sad in it's own little way...
Well, it's not a flame war yet...
I don't remember it being an aim either...
I agree. It's just too bad that the country as devolved for the most part back to fiefdoms. Unfortunately, I don't see what a better alternative would have been... say, if the US or UN set up a government, at the least there'd be substance to the cries that the West is setting up a puppet government. And I have no idea what any other better alternative to those two above would have been.
That was just a "side benefit" or a result that was hailed later. The Taliban refused to hand over bin Laden and/or go after the Al-Queda, that was pretty much the justification.
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Thallid Ice Cream Man
Guest
TAG GUARD
I wonder what TheGuyFromTheOtherPost's opinion on all this is...
I wonder what TheGuyFromTheOtherPost's opinion on all this is...
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TheGuyFromTheOtherPost
Guest
Duke, Gizmo, and Arhar are all idiots. The events happened. Everyone did their "thing," and now it's over. I believe it's time to move on. There's no point of holding on to past regrets or arguments. I should say that each of these guys need a break from this message board...maybe they'd get better touch with reality and themselves.
Also, Spiderman and TomB, hopefully we all agree that the place, although interesting, is falling apart. Make an official announcement that there should be much less emphasis on political threads...you guys are partially responsible for the on-going wars around here.
Guys, time has moved on...so should you.
Also, Spiderman and TomB, hopefully we all agree that the place, although interesting, is falling apart. Make an official announcement that there should be much less emphasis on political threads...you guys are partially responsible for the on-going wars around here.
Guys, time has moved on...so should you.
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Gizmo
Guest
So you (whoever the hell you are) think the answer is censorship?
I think its blatantly obvious that not enough people here GIVE A RATS ASS ABOUT MAGIC. The site will never be what it was because, as we have shown in earlier posts, the decision was made not to attempt to save it.
The CPA chose to stand still, which actually means going backwards. It will never again be a magic site, or even a general gaming site. It is what it is, and I think before long it will get worse, this decline is a one-way process.
If you think that by removing me, and anybody else who doesnt want to talk about magic, from the site you have a better chance of making this magic site again, then by all means do so. You`re wrong, but it`s worth a try I suppose.
I think its blatantly obvious that not enough people here GIVE A RATS ASS ABOUT MAGIC. The site will never be what it was because, as we have shown in earlier posts, the decision was made not to attempt to save it.
The CPA chose to stand still, which actually means going backwards. It will never again be a magic site, or even a general gaming site. It is what it is, and I think before long it will get worse, this decline is a one-way process.
If you think that by removing me, and anybody else who doesnt want to talk about magic, from the site you have a better chance of making this magic site again, then by all means do so. You`re wrong, but it`s worth a try I suppose.
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TheGuyFromTheOtherPost
Guest
Gizmo: "So you (whoever the hell you are) think the answer is censorship?"
No, actually, if you read my post, which clearly says:
"Make an official announcement that there should be much less emphasis on political threads..."
I don't believe in the censorship crap. Life is not politics. Life is not Magic. You guys have been just literarily destroying the CPA with your constant bickering, which is getting less than interesting.
I don't give a dang if you're removed or not. Don't talk about Magic. That's not the problem. The problem is the constant stupidity that lurks around here about politics.
Everyone clearly have stated their flawed opinions, now it's time to shut the hell up.
No, actually, if you read my post, which clearly says:
"Make an official announcement that there should be much less emphasis on political threads..."
I don't believe in the censorship crap. Life is not politics. Life is not Magic. You guys have been just literarily destroying the CPA with your constant bickering, which is getting less than interesting.
I don't give a dang if you're removed or not. Don't talk about Magic. That's not the problem. The problem is the constant stupidity that lurks around here about politics.
Everyone clearly have stated their flawed opinions, now it's time to shut the hell up.
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Gizmo
Guest
I dont think I`ve destroyed sh*t.
You think that fewer political posts = more magic posts?
I think fewer political posts = fewer posts.
There are no good posts any more simply because nobody has anything good to say. Dont make me the scapegoat just cos I still have things to say.
You think that fewer political posts = more magic posts?
I think fewer political posts = fewer posts.
There are no good posts any more simply because nobody has anything good to say. Dont make me the scapegoat just cos I still have things to say.
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Multani
Guest
Thank youTheGuyFromTheOtherPost!
Look people, all I am doing is to ask you to swallow your pride.
When you see a comment you think is absolutely offensive, just look the other way. Go to another forum if you have to.
Personally, I think that all other Political Debates should go to the Battle Arena.
The 'Magic' forums should only be about Magic or relavent items.
It's time to douse this fire. Either that, or contain it.
Look people, all I am doing is to ask you to swallow your pride.
When you see a comment you think is absolutely offensive, just look the other way. Go to another forum if you have to.
Personally, I think that all other Political Debates should go to the Battle Arena.
The 'Magic' forums should only be about Magic or relavent items.
It's time to douse this fire. Either that, or contain it.
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TheGuyFromTheOtherPost
Guest
Does anyone listen anymore.
Gizmo, you're being defensive. Otherewise, why would you assume:
"You think that fewer political posts = more magic posts?"?
No, I don't think fewer political posts would result in more Magic posts, and frankly, I don't play nor give a crap about Magic. Look, you've stated your opinion. It was heard loud and clear. Arhar stated his opinion, and it, too, was clear. Duke did his thing...
How many times do you guys have to do this? Surely you all have better things to do...or at least, I hope you do!
Gizmo, you're being defensive. Otherewise, why would you assume:
"You think that fewer political posts = more magic posts?"?
No, I don't think fewer political posts would result in more Magic posts, and frankly, I don't play nor give a crap about Magic. Look, you've stated your opinion. It was heard loud and clear. Arhar stated his opinion, and it, too, was clear. Duke did his thing...
How many times do you guys have to do this? Surely you all have better things to do...or at least, I hope you do!
And thanks ever so much for getting DÛke to resurrect TGFTOP...Originally posted by Thallid Ice Cream Man
TAG GUARD
I wonder what TheGuyFromTheOtherPost's opinion on all this is...
Sven: All I did was respond to yet another completely insane and ludicrous statement by you-know-who. In my first post in this thread I actually agreed with Multani (a miracle in itself), though in the end I did actually point out what Gizmo said - that all we'd do by shutting down the political talk in the Off-Topic forum is make it so even less people would find something to say here...
Good lord! I just agreed with both Multani and Gizmo in the same thread!
The world, as we know it, shall cease turning forthwith...
Seriously though, I think there is room for political discussions here, as well as everything else anyone else would like to talk about. That's why we have an Off-Topic forum - to have a place to talk about things non-Magic. Multani (and the rest of you who are upset about this), with the exception of that one thread in the General forum (and the degeneration there was evolutionary) political talk has been limited to this forum for months now. Please do not view that degenerated discussion as the norm and not the exception.
I've had to delete 4 posts from the end of this thread due to the way it's degenerated here at the end, and I've closed and re-opened the thread twice now. I'm going to leave it open for now, but anyone found to be posting in violation of the forum posting rules again will be subject to a one-way ticket to Palookaville, if you catch my meaning...
Let's keep it clean kids...
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TheGuyFromTheOtherPost
Guest
TomB, you think there's room for political talks? You're wrong.
So far, all the political talks have been about "the event." Gizmo has been doing nothing, but recycling his crap over and over again. So have Arhar, Duke, and you. TomB, you replied to this thread politically. Did you say anything new? Heck no. Everyone already knows your stand on the situation. You're a moderator, you should know better.
Talk about politics all you want, but when you see a recycled topic, and you attempt to speak out your opinion, which we've heard many times: act upon it. All the political topics are being recycled, and spit out at members over and over again, generating more chaos.
If you guys have nothing new to add on to the subject, please discontinue your befouling attitudes towards each other, and stop those threads...
So far, all the political talks have been about "the event." Gizmo has been doing nothing, but recycling his crap over and over again. So have Arhar, Duke, and you. TomB, you replied to this thread politically. Did you say anything new? Heck no. Everyone already knows your stand on the situation. You're a moderator, you should know better.
Talk about politics all you want, but when you see a recycled topic, and you attempt to speak out your opinion, which we've heard many times: act upon it. All the political topics are being recycled, and spit out at members over and over again, generating more chaos.
If you guys have nothing new to add on to the subject, please discontinue your befouling attitudes towards each other, and stop those threads...
Not the GuyFromAnotherPost! And Tag Guard! Wooo!
It's true all of the political talk has been about the Event. It's because pretty much, events today are shaped by it. I don't see anyone mentioning how deserts are swallowing up China, or whether people ought to rat on their neighbors for breaking drought rules when they're in effect, or whether Russia should have banned US chicken imports. Probably because they're either "localized" (like the drought) or it's just not important.
I don't see the problem with continually bringing up and rehashing "old views" about the Event. It takes more than one to tango, and if someone else replies (reasonably), then it's still current. If no one replied to arhar's post about the Nobel Winners, it's just slowly sink to the bottom of the page.
It's true all of the political talk has been about the Event. It's because pretty much, events today are shaped by it. I don't see anyone mentioning how deserts are swallowing up China, or whether people ought to rat on their neighbors for breaking drought rules when they're in effect, or whether Russia should have banned US chicken imports. Probably because they're either "localized" (like the drought) or it's just not important.
I don't see the problem with continually bringing up and rehashing "old views" about the Event. It takes more than one to tango, and if someone else replies (reasonably), then it's still current. If no one replied to arhar's post about the Nobel Winners, it's just slowly sink to the bottom of the page.