Casual Hall of Fame Nominations: Morningtide
- Thread starter Spiderman
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There aren't a lot of casual cards in this set that separate themselves from the rest of Morningtide.
For flavor's sake, I'm going to nominate Knowledge Exploitation. Yes, it's a control type card, but it's not undercosted UNLESS you can take advantage of Prowl (which was a great idea for a mechanic, but never had that many good rogues to take full advantage). We have Bribery and we have Acquire. Wizards then allowed players to fulfill the same ambition with instants and sorceries.
Ransac, cpa trash man
Ransac, cpa trash man
For flavor's sake, I'm going to nominate Knowledge Exploitation. Yes, it's a control type card, but it's not undercosted UNLESS you can take advantage of Prowl (which was a great idea for a mechanic, but never had that many good rogues to take full advantage). We have Bribery and we have Acquire. Wizards then allowed players to fulfill the same ambition with instants and sorceries.
Ransac, cpa trash man
Ransac, cpa trash man
Shabbaman
insert avatar here
Morningtide brings some pretty boring mechanics. Nothing that really tickles the fancy of a casual player, does it? I agree with Ransac that there's not much in the set. There's some tribal stuff, but compared to Lorwyn there's not much new.
There's the set's flagship, Chameleon Colossus. That card has it's uses and deserves nomination. Personally I think the card is a bit boring.
No, the only cards that initially tickled my fancy and that still stand out to me are the equipment cards. Somehow it's easy to give equipment more than decent flavor, but the idea of equipment that can only be carried by a specific tribe is awesome (yes, I do like How I met your mother). My preferred card is Obsidian battle axe (it even has flavor text), but the card with the best flavor is Cloak and dagger. The card reeks of conspiracy, and it rewards you with an untouchable creature. Very nice indeed.
So I nominate Cloak and Dagger. It's a card that is a good representative of what the set wants to do, the card has good flavor and it's actually any good. For me, those are the criteria that would make a card worthy of inclusion the casual hall of fame.
There's the set's flagship, Chameleon Colossus. That card has it's uses and deserves nomination. Personally I think the card is a bit boring.
No, the only cards that initially tickled my fancy and that still stand out to me are the equipment cards. Somehow it's easy to give equipment more than decent flavor, but the idea of equipment that can only be carried by a specific tribe is awesome (yes, I do like How I met your mother). My preferred card is Obsidian battle axe (it even has flavor text), but the card with the best flavor is Cloak and dagger. The card reeks of conspiracy, and it rewards you with an untouchable creature. Very nice indeed.
So I nominate Cloak and Dagger. It's a card that is a good representative of what the set wants to do, the card has good flavor and it's actually any good. For me, those are the criteria that would make a card worthy of inclusion the casual hall of fame.
Cloak and Dagger was another card I was tossing around. I like it a lot for our discussion.
Personally, I thought that Chameleon Colossus and Mutavault were both going to get a lot of pushing here (and was ready to go to war against both of them). I think that this entire block does such a great job with flavor that even the tournament powerhouses seem like casual cards. Trust me when I say that Chameleon Colossus does not warrant nomination here. Mutavault is close, but I feel the Exploitation and C&D are vastly superior casual cards.
Ransac, cpa trash man
Personally, I thought that Chameleon Colossus and Mutavault were both going to get a lot of pushing here (and was ready to go to war against both of them). I think that this entire block does such a great job with flavor that even the tournament powerhouses seem like casual cards. Trust me when I say that Chameleon Colossus does not warrant nomination here. Mutavault is close, but I feel the Exploitation and C&D are vastly superior casual cards.
Ransac, cpa trash man
R
rokapoke
Guest
Technically, I cannot chime in, being a member of the voting committee.
Bitterblossom? Really? The card that allowed 1 deck to dominate tournaments for nearly a year and a half (with a 3-4 month break in there) without any recourse for human kindness? Bitterblossom belongs in the Casual Card Hall of Fame as much as Arcbound Ravager does. For its sole domination of the standard environment (even though it had no PT wins during its time), it should be on the Casual Card banned list. This card made standard seem like it was unfun to play for a long time (and I managed to stay away for most of the Faeries dominated scene). Any card that contributes to the game not being fun to play anymore is not casual.
Take Note: During the Ultimate Singleton draft, I nabbed up Bitterblossom for its show of strength during PT Hollywood and that card single handedly won me many a game. I believe there was a game where it was the only card I played and I still won. Lemme check... okay, it was my first game (against YOU, MM) and I did play a Mox Pearl, Putrefy (to clear a specter) and a Llanowar Elves as well. But you get my point. No spell this overpowered and undercosted should be deemed Casual.
Ransac, cpa trash man
Take Note: During the Ultimate Singleton draft, I nabbed up Bitterblossom for its show of strength during PT Hollywood and that card single handedly won me many a game. I believe there was a game where it was the only card I played and I still won. Lemme check... okay, it was my first game (against YOU, MM) and I did play a Mox Pearl, Putrefy (to clear a specter) and a Llanowar Elves as well. But you get my point. No spell this overpowered and undercosted should be deemed Casual.
Ransac, cpa trash man
T
theorgg
Guest
I'm tempted to nominate Sensation Gorger, but I think I have to go with the more multiplayer friendly Boldwyr Heavyweights. If the Intemidator hadn't been in Future Sight, I might've gone with him because of his excellent flavor, but as it is, he kinda got old because he was spoiled, and feels like a reprint (mostly 'cause he is).
A
Al0ysiusHWWW
Guest
Reveillark
Mutavault (My vote)
Clique
Bitterblossom (cry moar)
Countryside Crusher
Taurean Mauler
Mutavault (My vote)
Clique
Bitterblossom (cry moar)
Countryside Crusher
Taurean Mauler
I knew someone would nominate Mutavault. I still don't understand its casual value. It's a tourney card and was designed as such since it fits into every deck that WotC was hoping would come out of Lorwyn. Designing a card that is a MUST OF for (essentially) all decks is NOT a good thing. $20 for a standard-legal man-land is far too much.
Ransac, cpa trash man
Ransac, cpa trash man
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Al0ysiusHWWW
Guest
So then I'm confused to what you consider a casual card? A card that isn't good and wont see play in any tournament environment?
There's nothing wrong with nominating a good card for this. Mutavault isn't superiorly broken, yet it fits well in a lot of tribal decks. Tribal decks are fun little gimmicky things so yeah I think it fits well in a casual deck. So sue me if people use it to replace factory when they have 3 lord of Atlantis out behind a counter top.
As far as the price of the card, I'm sorry you don't like the current market price good cards are at, but a lot of decent cards are running $20 each lately. It's a ridiculous way to disqualify cards as not being casual by attaching a price.
You can't build a deck around Mutavault, and while it fits in a ton of decks, that doesn't remove the fact that it's can be used casually. Putting 4 Mutavault in a deck wont break it, unlike 4 Yawgmoth's Will or whatever.
There's nothing wrong with nominating a good card for this. Mutavault isn't superiorly broken, yet it fits well in a lot of tribal decks. Tribal decks are fun little gimmicky things so yeah I think it fits well in a casual deck. So sue me if people use it to replace factory when they have 3 lord of Atlantis out behind a counter top.
As far as the price of the card, I'm sorry you don't like the current market price good cards are at, but a lot of decent cards are running $20 each lately. It's a ridiculous way to disqualify cards as not being casual by attaching a price.
You can't build a deck around Mutavault, and while it fits in a ton of decks, that doesn't remove the fact that it's can be used casually. Putting 4 Mutavault in a deck wont break it, unlike 4 Yawgmoth's Will or whatever.
I define a casual card nominee as fun to play, extremely flavorful and not overpowering/undercosted. It should be able to make the game fun all on its own. As much as I like playing man-lands, I fail to see how they make games any more fun.
Knowledge Exploitation is a perfect example of this because you (theoretically) get to play the game different every time you use it. You (may) have no idea what spells your opponent has in their deck and get to (potentially) change the state of the game in a whole new way each time you play it.
You're right, Mutavault isn't "superiorly broken." After all, it's just a 2/2 man-land. It won't change any games on its own (although it CAN win one on its own like any creature can). However, its activation ability seems very undercosted for a creature that can benefit from every deck it goes into. Once again, it doesn't increase the "fun factor" of the game.
Additionally, like Bitterblossom, I strongly disagree with the selection of any card that helped make the Faeries deck great.
Ransac, cpa trash man
Knowledge Exploitation is a perfect example of this because you (theoretically) get to play the game different every time you use it. You (may) have no idea what spells your opponent has in their deck and get to (potentially) change the state of the game in a whole new way each time you play it.
You're right, Mutavault isn't "superiorly broken." After all, it's just a 2/2 man-land. It won't change any games on its own (although it CAN win one on its own like any creature can). However, its activation ability seems very undercosted for a creature that can benefit from every deck it goes into. Once again, it doesn't increase the "fun factor" of the game.
Additionally, like Bitterblossom, I strongly disagree with the selection of any card that helped make the Faeries deck great.
Ransac, cpa trash man
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Al0ysiusHWWW
Guest
Man lands don't make magic fun? I've made a ton of land reliant decks that depend on man lands for the win for casual games only. I don't see how that makes sense. Any card can be considered fun. That's such a subjective term. Who has to consider it fun? In what situations? What card is considered fun all on it's own?
Regardless, this isn't the most fun "casual" card contest. Though fun can be the leading contribution factor, effectiveness should be just as highly ranked. A casual card can still be good. Platinum Angel, Darksteel Colossus, Deranged Hermit made it in previous lists, I don't see why Mutavault can't.
You compare it to Ravager, but Ravager is broken. Mutavault still has places in casual decks for the simple fact that 1. It appeals to tribal 2. It's a manland. Ravager has a very specific set of talents that 1. You can pump it conditionally and 2. It has modular. The modular gives it a pretty specific purpose, Shapeshifter creature type does not. There are decks that can exploit both aspects effectively, but modular is useless without artifact creatures. Not exploiting creature types for Mutavault isn't on the same level of disadvantage if neglected.
As far as the activation cost, what would be a more sutiable amount? 2 mana would be crap, since you could just play factory instead. Even the colored man lands are like 3 mana at most, have abilities, and are larger than 2/2.
If treetop village can be a 3/3 Trample ape for 1G, then I see no problem with Mutavault being a 2/2 shapeshifter. Sure it comes into play tapped, but it also produces green mana itself. Blinkmoth Nexus has pumping, produces colorless, and is a 1/1 flying creature type artifact. Faerie Conclave is a 2/1 flying faerie for 1U, forbidding Watch Tower a 1/5 Soldier, Ghitu Encampment a 2/1 first strike warrior, and Spawning Pool is a Skeleton regenerating 1/1. Stalking Stones and Svogthos both cost 6 sure, but have abnormal effect compared to the others. Nantuko Monestary is a 4/4 first strike for WG and Thresh. And the most similar is Factory that becomes a 2/2 for 1 and can pump. I think that's all the man lands, so it's a good basis for what a pattern can be.
If it produces colored mana it comes into play tapped. 1 and a mana of any color produces a manland with a creature type, ability and at least a 1/1 at worst. Remove the ability and keep the type would give you a 1/1 creature type for 1. That'd be as good as spawning pool, but spawing pool is terrible.
Factory is a good card, is a 2/2 for 1, has artifact status, has a creature type, and can pump other creatures of it's type. Is Factory broken or unfun, or flavorless? Because I don't see that, and Mutavault is pretty close in power.
Your biggest issue is over the shapeshift ability obviously, which is definitely better in some situations than pumping a worker. But just because faeries gains more power with more faeries doesn't make the cards it uses not fun. What if people like faeries? What if people like Merfolk? Or Goblins? Or Elves, or Shapeshifters? Or Blinkmoths? Or Assembly Workers? The fact that you don't find it fun, doesn't mean others don't.
Bitterblossom is an amazing card, and while I didn't recommend it for my pick, you are biased just because you don't like a deck that used it effectively, and think of the card only as that by association. It's amazing for Sui-black, and a ton of other decks, yes including faeries. I'm sorry you had a tough time when faeries dominated the format you played in, but that shouldn't detract for a card's nomination in whether or not it's fun in casual.
Regardless, this isn't the most fun "casual" card contest. Though fun can be the leading contribution factor, effectiveness should be just as highly ranked. A casual card can still be good. Platinum Angel, Darksteel Colossus, Deranged Hermit made it in previous lists, I don't see why Mutavault can't.
You compare it to Ravager, but Ravager is broken. Mutavault still has places in casual decks for the simple fact that 1. It appeals to tribal 2. It's a manland. Ravager has a very specific set of talents that 1. You can pump it conditionally and 2. It has modular. The modular gives it a pretty specific purpose, Shapeshifter creature type does not. There are decks that can exploit both aspects effectively, but modular is useless without artifact creatures. Not exploiting creature types for Mutavault isn't on the same level of disadvantage if neglected.
As far as the activation cost, what would be a more sutiable amount? 2 mana would be crap, since you could just play factory instead. Even the colored man lands are like 3 mana at most, have abilities, and are larger than 2/2.
If treetop village can be a 3/3 Trample ape for 1G, then I see no problem with Mutavault being a 2/2 shapeshifter. Sure it comes into play tapped, but it also produces green mana itself. Blinkmoth Nexus has pumping, produces colorless, and is a 1/1 flying creature type artifact. Faerie Conclave is a 2/1 flying faerie for 1U, forbidding Watch Tower a 1/5 Soldier, Ghitu Encampment a 2/1 first strike warrior, and Spawning Pool is a Skeleton regenerating 1/1. Stalking Stones and Svogthos both cost 6 sure, but have abnormal effect compared to the others. Nantuko Monestary is a 4/4 first strike for WG and Thresh. And the most similar is Factory that becomes a 2/2 for 1 and can pump. I think that's all the man lands, so it's a good basis for what a pattern can be.
If it produces colored mana it comes into play tapped. 1 and a mana of any color produces a manland with a creature type, ability and at least a 1/1 at worst. Remove the ability and keep the type would give you a 1/1 creature type for 1. That'd be as good as spawning pool, but spawing pool is terrible.
Factory is a good card, is a 2/2 for 1, has artifact status, has a creature type, and can pump other creatures of it's type. Is Factory broken or unfun, or flavorless? Because I don't see that, and Mutavault is pretty close in power.
Your biggest issue is over the shapeshift ability obviously, which is definitely better in some situations than pumping a worker. But just because faeries gains more power with more faeries doesn't make the cards it uses not fun. What if people like faeries? What if people like Merfolk? Or Goblins? Or Elves, or Shapeshifters? Or Blinkmoths? Or Assembly Workers? The fact that you don't find it fun, doesn't mean others don't.
Bitterblossom is an amazing card, and while I didn't recommend it for my pick, you are biased just because you don't like a deck that used it effectively, and think of the card only as that by association. It's amazing for Sui-black, and a ton of other decks, yes including faeries. I'm sorry you had a tough time when faeries dominated the format you played in, but that shouldn't detract for a card's nomination in whether or not it's fun in casual.
You say that 2 mana for an activation cost would be crap, but if it comes into play untapped I still believe the 1 mana cost is undercosted. 2 or cipt would have been balanced.
I suppose what my argument against Mutavault and Bitterblossom are more for what the cards represent: A time in magic where players playing standard magic either played faeries, played to beat faeries or lost. Anything that represents a schizm of this magnitude does not have a casual appeal. YES, you can put them into casual decks. YES, you can find ways to have a lot of fun with them. HOWEVER, when one is looking for a representation from a set for a casual audience, you HAVE to look at it from a fun attitude.
The casual doesn't does not need to be the MOST fun card on the list, but the card should CREATE fun in some way. If not, you are looking at is most likely (though not always) a crappy card or a tournament level card in a casual environment (Yes, people. There is a HUGE difference because a tournament environment and a casual environment).
Personally, seeing Mutavault considered on this list is insulting as a casual player.
Ransac, cpa trash man
I suppose what my argument against Mutavault and Bitterblossom are more for what the cards represent: A time in magic where players playing standard magic either played faeries, played to beat faeries or lost. Anything that represents a schizm of this magnitude does not have a casual appeal. YES, you can put them into casual decks. YES, you can find ways to have a lot of fun with them. HOWEVER, when one is looking for a representation from a set for a casual audience, you HAVE to look at it from a fun attitude.
To a point, I'll agree with you, but I have to look at this statement and laugh. To me, the idea of a casual magic player is "someone who plays for the sheer enjoyment of participation and experience of the game." Whether or not a card is fun has EVERYTHING to do with this list.Al0ysiusHWWW said:
The casual doesn't does not need to be the MOST fun card on the list, but the card should CREATE fun in some way. If not, you are looking at is most likely (though not always) a crappy card or a tournament level card in a casual environment (Yes, people. There is a HUGE difference because a tournament environment and a casual environment).
Personally, seeing Mutavault considered on this list is insulting as a casual player.
Ransac, cpa trash man
T
theorgg
Guest
I've seen Mutavault played hundreds of times as a Judge.
Times I've seen someone cheer or laugh or celebrate the fact? Once. It won him the tournament when he topdecked it.
Times I've seen people enjoying someone playing the card, or simply someone having fun because they were using it? None.
Granted, it's great support, but casual is all about FUN. Such as they Heavyweights-- you play them, and then what happens? Someone gets a creature. Is your 8/8 big enough? I dunno! Why not see, and then see the other people's reactions when the guy that just paid $4 for a Phage pulls Phage out... and loses.
I've seen it, everyone laughed, and even the guy that made the mistake realized how silly he had been.
Mainly, though, EVERYONE had fun by grabbing a creature of their choice from their deck. The smartest guy got a Theving Magpie, and rode it to near victory by its sheer ability to not be huge and draw the creaturekill. My giants? Died three turns later to a giant-growth'd Verdant Force.
Times I've seen someone cheer or laugh or celebrate the fact? Once. It won him the tournament when he topdecked it.
Times I've seen people enjoying someone playing the card, or simply someone having fun because they were using it? None.
Granted, it's great support, but casual is all about FUN. Such as they Heavyweights-- you play them, and then what happens? Someone gets a creature. Is your 8/8 big enough? I dunno! Why not see, and then see the other people's reactions when the guy that just paid $4 for a Phage pulls Phage out... and loses.
I've seen it, everyone laughed, and even the guy that made the mistake realized how silly he had been.
Mainly, though, EVERYONE had fun by grabbing a creature of their choice from their deck. The smartest guy got a Theving Magpie, and rode it to near victory by its sheer ability to not be huge and draw the creaturekill. My giants? Died three turns later to a giant-growth'd Verdant Force.
Shabbaman
insert avatar here
Shouldn't casual "stars" have the appeal to build a deck around them? Such a card (for me) is Toshiro Umezawa: high in flavor, weird mechanic with a possible strong effect. Or Dwarven pony 
Cloak and dagger fails a bit in this aspect, it's just decent equipment. From the same &subtype=+["Equipment"]]equipment cycle there are Thornbite staff and Obsidian battle axe that do have that appeal. Mutavault does have a bit of this appeal, because it's a changeling. But I'm not very thrilled by Mutavault.
I think one of the problems with this block is that it's a tribal block. Tribal has a lot of casual appeal, so there's always some cool card that stands out a bit. This block doesn't have those cards, because they're all tribal. That makes all cards equally cool, or equally lame.
Cloak and dagger fails a bit in this aspect, it's just decent equipment. From the same &subtype=+["Equipment"]]equipment cycle there are Thornbite staff and Obsidian battle axe that do have that appeal. Mutavault does have a bit of this appeal, because it's a changeling. But I'm not very thrilled by Mutavault.
I think one of the problems with this block is that it's a tribal block. Tribal has a lot of casual appeal, so there's always some cool card that stands out a bit. This block doesn't have those cards, because they're all tribal. That makes all cards equally cool, or equally lame.