Boy Scouts of America

[turgy22]

Off-Topic rant regarding the Boy Scouts debate: First, I'm pretty sure that EB was referring to the BSA getting sued by the gay scout/scout leader (can't remember which) who came out and got banned from scouts. As Oversoul said, the BSA basically won the litigation and were permitted to keep homosexuals out of the organization. But the whole situation was completely ridiculous.

The problem starts from the fact that our society treats homosexuality like some sort of disease. To counteract this stigma, gay people feel like they need constant affirmation for being gay. Hence, they have pride parades and feel the need to "come out" where they tell everyone about how they're gay and proud. If society was more accepting, gay people could just be themselves without having to announce it to the world.

Before this happened, the Boy Scouts basically operated under a "don't ask/don't tell" system. When the guy came out, the organization was put into a lose-lose situation. They couldn't allow him to stay in the troop because most parents are afraid to have gay people around their children and most troops in this country are sponsored by churches, who likely would have cut funding for an organization that accepts "sinful" behavior. On the other hand, the organization also had very strong ties to the government and by excluding gays, would lose government funding and use of government facilities.

Obviously, the BSA did what was in their best interest, siding with the religious and traditional values, but it still cost them quite a bit in the end. What bothered me most (as an Eagle and scout leader) was that all this could have been avoided if gay people didn't find it necessary to announce their sexuality to the world.

As another example, atheists are technically not allowed in BSA, either. The organization was founded on religious values and that includes the belief in some greater power. However, a number of scouts don't believe in God, yet continue to participate. It's not an issue because atheists don't feel a need to tell the world who they are or what they believe in. Why can't homosexuality be treated the same way?

DF: I haven't heard about this rule where girls must be allowed in Boy Scouts. If true, it certainly hasn't affected my troop. Some of the scout leaders are women, but outside of Venture Crew, Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts remain separate. But I'm personally in favor of allowing girls into the BSA. The problem with Girl Scouts is that as a whole, the organization is very poorly run and the troops generally aren't as well established or supported as their Boy Scout counterparts. I know a girl that had to go through three different troops to earn her Gold award because they kept folding. The BSA offers a level of stability that makes it a much more appealing organization. And having a daughter myself, I'd much rather see her enter Boy Scouts, where she can learn survival and leadership skills as opposed to selling cookies.

 

[Oversoul]

Actually, I believe what EB was refering to was the allowance of girls into the Boy Scouts. I was in scouts when I was younger, and made it to Eagle Rank. One of the reasons that I will not become a Scout Leader in my neighborhood is that they now HAVE to allow a girl to participate. This is because some people did sue the Boy Scouts for not allowing girls to become members and go to the Boy Scout camps.

Um, the BSA STILL does not allow girls. There might be some confusion here because the BSA has at least one subsidiary program that is more open (to females, to gays, to atheists, basically all of those groups that the BSA excludes). But the Boy Scouts themselves have always been a "no girls allowed" club. Note that women are allowed to become scout leaders (didn't see any in my area when I was in the BSA, but I do know it happens), but I don't think this has anything to do with a lawsuit either, it was just a choice the organization made at some point.

Again, to the best of my knowledge, the only successful membership lawsuits against the BSA dealt with some sort of government money, be it sponsorship by government organizations, special free access to government property, etc. Otherwise, they're a private organization, so the courts have ruled that they can have whatever membership criteria they want.

 

[DarthFerret]

Ok, I actually took the time to look it up. And as of this current time, girls are not allowed in the Boy Scouts. Women are allowed in all leadership roles, and this is one of the things that had me confused. When I was working towards attaining Eagle Scout rank the lawsuits were being brought forth (some of them) to allow girls in. This was also about the same time that the last few leadership positions previously excluding women were opened up to them. Thus my confusion and I appologize for my error.

As for why girls are not allowed. It is actually a rule of Congress:

According to Boy Scouts of America’s Charter “The purpose of this corporation shall be to promote . . . the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, to train them in Scoutcraft, and to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues . . . .” 36 U.S.C. § 30902 (2003).

And just for your reading pleasure, the following are the highest profile cases of legal action taken against BSA and the conclusions (judgements) of such action as determined by the courts:

● Schwenk v. Boy Scouts of America, 551 P.2d 465 (Or. 1976)
A girl who had been denied membership in a Cub Scout Pack sued Boy Scouts of America alleging that Boy Scouts violated Oregon law. The Oregon Supreme Court held that Oregon law did not apply to Scouting, as a private, noncommercial group.


● Quinnipiac Council v. Commission on Human Rights & Opportunities, 528 A.2d 352 (Conn. 1987)
A female volunteer leader sued a Boy Scout council alleging that the then policy of limited Scoutmaster positions to men violated the Connecticut public accommodations law. The Connecticut Supreme Court held that the public accommodations law did not apply to Scouting’s leadership positions because volunteering to serve youth was not a right protected under that law.

In 1988, Boy Scouts of America changed the policy and allowed women to be Scoutmasters.


● Mankes v. Boy Scouts of America, 137 F.R.D. 409 (S.D. Fla. 1991)
A girl who had been denied membership in a Cub Scout Pack sued Boy Scouts of America alleging a violation of state law. The federal District Court held that it lacked jurisdiction to hear the case, but noted, “The Boy Scouts’ goals to instill the ideals of leadership, self-confidence, and moral character are not new. These goals to ease transition of boys from youth to adulthood have remained constant, and were the basis for the Congressional charter as an organization for boys. It should be clear that the Court is not sending a message to plaintiff that she must settle for participation in Girl Scouts, but that there is nothing inherently discriminatory about the Boy Scouts’ goals. The Boy Scouts did not, in creating its organization to help develop the moral character of young boys, intentionally set out to discriminate against girls.” 137 F.R.D. at 411.


● Department of Human Rights v. Boy Scouts of America, No. MX 92-07717 (Minn. Dist. Ct. Aug. 6, 1992)
The Minnesota Human Rights Commission sought an injunction on behalf of a girl who had been denied membership in a Boy Scout Troop. The Hennepin County District Court denied the request for a temporary injunction. “To hold that the Minnesota Human Rights Act compels the Boy Scouts of America to admit girls as members would violate both the Minnesota and United States Constitutions’ freedom of association provisions.” In light of Congress granting separate charters to Boy Scouts of America and Girl Scouts U.S.A. within a few years of each other, “if Congress would have intended that girls be allowed in the Boy Scouts and vice versa, it would have chartered one organization, i.e., Scouts of America.” Furthermore, the court concluded that Boy Scouts are not covered by the Minnesota Human Rights Act.


● Yeaw v. Boy Scouts of America, 55 Cal. App. 4th 607, 64 Cal. Rptr. 2d 85 (Cal. Ct. App. 1997), review dismissed, 960 P.2d 509 (Cal. 1998)
A girl who was denied membership in a Boy Scout Troop sought to enjoin Boy Scouts from denying her membership. The Sacramento Superior Court denied her request for an injunction, and the Court of Appeal affirmed. “One of the principal units through which the Boy Scouts accomplishes its goals is the Patrol. Every boy is, first and foremost, part of a Patrol, a group of three-to-eight boys within a Troop. Each Patrol has its own name, its own badge, its own meetings, its own elected leaders and its own sense of identity. The members lead, plan and organize their own activities, thereby gaining skills in leadership, planning and cooperation. The Patrol becomes a close knit group of boys who have learned to provide for each other’s personal needs.”

I know I quoted a lot, but I feel it is relevent to explain my confusion and new enlightenment. I still feel that women as Scout Leaders is not right (mainly because Scouts allowed me to bond a bit more closely with my father) however, I can see the argument that many children do not have a father on hand and the mother has a right to be involved in her son's activities.

Since the Scouts is a private organization, they have the right to be exclusionary. Same thing as any church (also a private organization) can exclude membership to anyone not holding within that groups specific beliefs (I do not think that is the right way to run a church, and mine allows anyone that wants to come in, to come in).

Will I ever be a leader in Scouts? That depends on if I ever have a son I think. Right now I merely have a daughter, and she has not expressed any interest in Scouts at all (either girl or boy). Would I ever let her into Boy Scouts? No. Not only is it against the charter as defined by Congress, but it is against the way that we believe, and against the way that I am choosing to raise her.

Ok, Scout debate over, lets get back to the topic now.

 

[Mooseman]

Ok, Scout debate over, lets get back to the topic now.

What topic is that?

 

[DarthFerret]

Before it was split off, this was part of the gay-marriage topic. Now it is its own. Ah..the power of a Mod.

 

[Spiderman]

Muhahahaha...

 

[turgy22]

Will I ever be a leader in Scouts? That depends on if I ever have a son I think. Right now I merely have a daughter, and she has not expressed any interest in Scouts at all (either girl or boy). Would I ever let her into Boy Scouts? No. Not only is it against the charter as defined by Congress, but it is against the way that we believe, and against the way that I am choosing to raise her.

So if I'm interpretting you correctly (which I doubt), you're saying that you don't want your daughter raised to do things for herself and others, to be trained in Scoutcraft, or to learn patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues?

 

[EricBess]

There is a fallicy in thinking that those values can only be learned in Scouts...

 

[turgy22]

I never said they couldn't be learned elsewhere.

 

[DarthFerret]

Actually Turgy, I do want my daughter to learn most of those (prolly not scoutcraft-depends on yoru definition), but in a forum suitable for her. Thus either the Girl Scouts (not sure, dont know much about em), or through my church, or even (heaven forbid) through me and my wife.

I also go camping at least twice a year with my wife, and once with my church. There will be plenty of opportunities for her to learn such skills without having to force a private organization to adopt a stadard for which they are not in favor of.

 

[Killer Joe]

My two daughters are in the Girl Scouts and they love it! It's the one extra activity they do that is never in question as to whether or not they'll stay in, we personally know the scout master (mistress?) and she's awesome (and married to a Man w/children of her own).

 

[lovefcs09]

3.3 Problems involved in sentences
Most students in China may write wordy sentences. They usually use the method of one-word-for-one-word translations. Their sentences contain many unnecessary words. Like the followingselected from students:
(1) It was blue in color.
It was small in size.dofus kamas
Vicky is a quiet and careful girl.
He returned in the early part of the month of August.
(2) The old engineer in collaboration with some or her younger colleagues jage of Conan gold[/URL]ointly designed this machine.dofus kamas
The above sentences could be called Chinese-English that refers to speech or writing in English that shows the interference or influence of Chinese thinking patterns. Some sentences may be word for word translations of Chinese expressions. Chinese English may be grammatically correct, but the choice of phrases and the manner of expression do not conform to normal English usage, though understanding may not be a problem, it is absurd to English people. If the idea is fully expressed, the fewer words are used, the better. Wordiness only obscures, instead of clarifying the idea. The sentence “it was blue in color” in which the phrase “in color” is unnecessary, as we know blue is a kind of color. The word “jointly” is equivalent to the phrase “in collaboration with”. Therefore, the sentences can be corrected in this way:
(1) It was blue.
It was small.
Vicky is quiet and careful.
He returned in early August.
(2) This machine was designed by the old engineer in collaboration with some of his younger colleagues or revised this machine was jointly designed by the old engineer and some of his younger colleagues.
wow gold
3.4 Problems involved in paragraphs
Illogical or reversing of the topic sentence or no topic sentence always can be seen in the students’ writing. Take a look at the following paragraph selected from English writing for TEM-4:
They never get up before 9 o’clock to have their breakfast. In the morning, most of themwill stay in the washroom to wash their clothes. After lunch, if weather permits, they go for an outing with their classmates; or they spend a whole afternoon in the library, reviewing lessons or reading recent periodicals. They all get together in the dormitory in the evening, singing and chattering until they feel tired. University students always have a good relaxation on Sundays
Having a glance at the above paragraph, you would say it has no errors, but closer check it, you will find something goes wrong. The above paragraph is a typical Chinese writing, because they often put the topic sentence at the beginning of the paragraph in English writing. Therefore, we should put the last sentence Final Fantasy XI Gil
dofus kamas
at the beginning of the paragraph which makes it much more conform to the English writing form.