IYO Whats broken?

S

shadow_acid

Guest
What cards do you think are broken?

I have a large list that i will post soon but what do you think they never should have made.
 
T

train

Guest
I don't think there'd be a large list if it were only the current format - so I'll ass-u-me that you mean all sets - Most broken - Island... next most broken - Dream Halls... then counterspell...
 
S

shadow_acid

Guest
Yes i mean anything.

And what is the problem with island. Its a basic land for christ sake!
 
T

train

Guest
aversion might be an understatement...;)

but - as a common - there's more of them than any other card - and as a common land - well... now you understand...
 
I

Istanbul

Guest
Where to start...

Black Lotus
Moxen
Necropotence
Ancestral Recall
Time Walk
Timetwister
Serendib Efreet
Necropotence
Strip Mine
Sol Ring
Tolarian Academy
Gaea's Cradle
Mishra's Workshop
Necropotence
Force of Will
Cursed Scroll
Crystalline Sliver
Mox Diamond
Survival of the Fittest
Necropotence
Morphling
Memory Jar
Masticore
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Yawgmoth's Will
Demonic Tutor
Necropotence
Blastoderm
Fact or Fiction
Upheaval
Mirari's Wake
Exalted Angel
Necropotence

Also, I think Necropotence is the most broken card ever.
 

Oversoul

The Tentacled One
I know some cards that I consider broken, I guess, but I still wouldn't take back their being printed. In many cases, they can cancel each other out, plus they were learning experiences, plus power is cool! But off the top of my head...

Black Lotus
Mox Pearl
Mox Sapphire
Mox Jet
Mox Ruby
Mox Emerald
Ancestral Recall
Time Walk
Timetwister
Wheel of Fortune
Balance
Sol Ring
Mana Vault
Mind Twist
Fastbond
Regrowth
Berserk
Dark Ritual
Lightning Bolt
Fork
Demonic Tutor
Illusionary Mask (with Phyrexian Dreadnought, especially)
Icy Manipulator
Winter Orb
Forcefield
Word of Command
Hypnotic Specter
Sinkhole
Braingeyser
Savannah Lions
Birds of Paradise
Black Vise
Swords to Plowshares
All ten dual lands

Library of Alexandria
Juzam Djinn
City of Brass
Serendib Efreet
Drop of Honey
Kird Ape
Bazaar of Baghdad
Ernham Djinn
Guardian Beast

Mishra's Workshop
Strip Mine
Candelabra of Tawnos
Mishra's Factory
Hurkyl's Recall
Ivory Tower
Millstone
The Rack
The three Urza's lands

Mana Drain
Sylvan Library
Land Tax
The Abyss
Moat
Boomerang
Mirror Universe
Nether Void
Force Spike
Chain Lightning

Ball Lightning
Maze of Ith
Tormod's Crypt

Hymn to Tourach
Goblin Grenade
High Tide

Necropotence
Pox
Jester's Cap
Enduring Renewal
Zuran Orb
Demonic Consultation
Mystic Remora :p
All five painlands

Merchant Scroll

Force of Will
Thawing Glaciers
Kjeldoran Outpost
Lake of the Dead
Scars of the Veteran
Contagion
Exile

Enlightened Tutor
Mystical Tutor
Hammer of Bogardan
Cadaverous Bloom
Lion's Eye Diamond
Kaervek's Torch
Natural Balance

Vampiric Tutor
Fireblast
Impulse
Undiscovered Paradise
City of Solitude
Squandered Resources
Prosperity
Helm of Awakening
Natural Order

Gemstone Mine
Ophidian
Gaea's Blessing
Buried Alive
Abeyance
Spinning Darkness
Lotus Vale
Scorched Ruins

Intuition
Cursed Scroll
Lotus Petal
Mogg Fanatic
Living Death
Meditate
Verdant Force
Aluren
Scroll Rack
Propaganda
Auratog
Capsize
Earthcraft
Humility
Ancient Tomb
Diabolic Edict
Reap
Wasteland

Mox Diamond
Dream Halls
Ensnaring Bridge
Hermit Druid
Megrim
Spike Feeder
Wall of Blossoms
Volrath's Shapeshifter
Crystalline Sliver
Pursuit of Knowledge
Horn of Greed

Oath of Druids
Mind over Matter
Survival of the Fittest
Recurring Nightmare
Equilibrium
City of Traitors
Hatred
Forbid
Pandemonium
Spike Weaver
Sonic Burst
Ertai, Wizard Adept

Tolarian Academy
Yawgmoth's Will
Time Spiral
Windfall
Sneak Attack
Morphling
Gaea's Cradle
Serra's Sanctum
Abundance
Exhume
Humble
Planar Void
Arcane Laboratory
Fecundity
Stroke of Genius
Gamble
Worship
Duress
Karn, Silver Golem
Fluctuator
Phyrexian Processor
Thran Quarry
Voltaic Key
Wildfire
Elvish Lyrist
Phyrexian Colossus
Contamination
Exploration
Exhume
Pariah
Serra Avatar
Smokestack
Argothian Enchantress

Memory Jar
Tinker
Rancor
Treetop Village
Deranged Hermit
Crop Rotation
Frantic Search
Palinchron
Mother of Runes
Grim Monolith
Goblin Welder
Defense Grid
Phyrexian Plaguelord
Snap

Academy Rector
Replenish
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Masticore
Opposition
Phyrexian Negator
Metalworker
Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
Bubbling Muck
Donate
Eradicate
Keldon Champion
Powder Keg
Junk Diver
Thieving Magpie
Thorn Elemental
Yavimaya Hollow
Thran Dynamo
Treachery
Bubbling Muck
Covetous Dragon
Elvish Piper
Extruder
Opalescence
Pattern of Rebirth
Scrying Glass

Story Circle
Rishadan Port
Unmask
Ramosian Sergeant
Gush
Ivory Mask
Misdirection
Squee, Goblin Nabob
Nether Spirit
Conspiracy
Delraich
Puffer Extract
Foster
All five depletion counter lands (Remote Farm, etc.)

Saproling Burst
Tangle Wire
Lin-Sivvi, Defiant Hero
Blastoderm
Parallax Wave
Parallax Tide
Rhox
Accumulated Knowledge
Seal of Removal
Rootwater Thief
Saproling Cluster
Seal of Fire

Avatar of Woe
Chimeric Idol
Foil
Mageta, the Lion
Aura Fracture
Spore Frog
Rhystic Scrying
Avatar of Fury
Vitalizing Wind
Denying Wind

Obviously this isn't even a comprehensive list, and it's still pretty long (okay, some of the cards are just really cool, and not truly broken...)
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
Let's define "broken" here to make sure everyone's on the same page. I mean, you two listed some creatures (Oversoul more than Isty), but is Serendib Efreet really "broken" (maybe I'd better look up what it actually is ;) )? I think Blastoderm is on the fence too (Oversoul's list is just way too extensive, so I'm picking from Isty's :) )
 
S

shadow_acid

Guest
ok we pretty much have every old card that is considered broken by everybody, but i see a huge list, like Oversouls list, only for newer cards from invasion on. (even though im a big invasion block fan). i do think that they didnt realize what they did when they made fact or fiction, the best of the divvys.
 
R

Rooser

Guest
Hmm - I take a different stance. Yes, if we could go back in time and redo magic in the name of good balance, most of alpha wouldn't even be there, and many cards since have clearly proved their "uh-oh" factor.

But there's two kinds of broken: Undercosted Broken and Overpowered Broken. Most broken cards are just undercosted. Opportunity's effect is more powerful than Ancestral Recall's, Ancestral Recall is only stronger because it costs way too little for what it does. (Yes, I'm channelling Bullhead here). What I'm saying is very few cards have effects that should not exist no matter what they cost. In fact I can think of only one-

Dream Halls.

There might be others, but right now that's all that is coming to mind.
 

Oversoul

The Tentacled One
Heh, one of my favorites...

But Bargain and some other enchantments would be good regardless of CC thanks to the utterly broken Academy Rector (most broken creature ever, IMO).
 
N

Nightstalkers

Guest
Originally posted by Istanbul
Black Lotus
Moxen
Necropotence
Ancestral Recall
Time Walk
Timetwister
Serendib Efreet
Necropotence
Strip Mine
Sol Ring
Tolarian Academy
Gaea's Cradle
Mishra's Workshop
Necropotence
Force of Will
Cursed Scroll
Crystalline Sliver
Mox Diamond
Survival of the Fittest
Necropotence
Morphling
Memory Jar
Masticore
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Yawgmoth's Will
Demonic Tutor
Necropotence
Blastoderm
Fact or Fiction
Upheaval
Mirari's Wake
Exalted Angel
All that and Donate.
 
I

Istanbul

Guest
#1: Donate is not broken. I would even argue that Illusions of Grandeur is not broken, only that it needs errata to work the way it was OBVIOUSLY intended to work.

#2: Broodstar is not broken. To make it very powerful (bigger than, say, 4/4 or 5/5) you have to cram him into a deck FULL of artifacts. And if we're going with the overall card pool, one Shatterstorm or Purify or Seeds of Innocence r0xx0rz ur b0xx0rz.

#3: I will now add some cards to my list that I left off, that I felt really are broken.
Wheel of Fortune
Balance
Mana Vault
Fastbond
Dark Ritual
Fork
Word of Command
Sinkhole
Black Vise
Swords to Plowshares
All ten dual lands

Library of Alexandria
Candelabra of Tawnos
Hurkyl's Recall
The Rack
Mana Drain
Land Tax
The Abyss
Moat
Nether Void
Tormod's Crypt
Hymn to Tourach
High Tide

Enduring Renewal
Zuran Orb
Demonic Consultation
Merchant Scroll
Kjeldoran Outpost

Enlightened Tutor
Mystical Tutor
Cadaverous Bloom
Vampiric Tutor
Fireblast
Impulse
Squandered Resources
Gaea's Blessing

Intuition
Scroll Rack
Propaganda
Earthcraft
Wasteland
Dream Halls
Spike Feeder
Horn of Greed
Oath of Druids
Mind over Matter
Hatred
Forbid
Pandemonium
Spike Weaver

Time Spiral
Windfall
Sneak Attack
Exhume
Gamble
Fluctuator
Voltaic Key
Contamination
Tinker
Rancor
Crop Rotation
Frantic Search
Mother of Runes
Grim Monolith
Replenish
Opposition
Metalworker
Treachery
Bubbling Muck
Covetous Dragon

Story Circle
Gush
Misdirection
Nether Spirit
Saproling Burst
Tangle Wire
Lin-Sivvi, Defiant Hero
Parallax Wave
Parallax Tide
Rootwater Thief
Foil

Yes, I added a lot of cards...but I also left out a LOT that were on Oversoul's list. I think that somewhere along the line, he lost track of the difference between 'good' and 'broken'.
 

Spiderman

Administrator
Staff member
Once again, no one's really saying why a card's broken except for Rooser and slightly Oversoul. I think there's a couple categories of "broken":

Stand-alone cards that are cheap for their effect (I guess undercosted broken, like what Rooser said). Balance, Wheel of Fortune, StP, mana producing artifacts that produce more than what they cost getting out, etc.

Cards that break Magic's Rules: Dream Halls.

Cards that are good by themselves but can be placed in unstoppable combos: ProsBloom?
 
R

Rooser

Guest
Yeah, both Yawgmoth's Will and Bargain might simply be Overpowered, and maybe Mind's Desire too.

So that's my list:

Dream Halls
Mind's Desire
Yawhmoth's Will
Yawgmoth's Bargain

And I guess Necropotence would belong there too. So:

Necropotence
 
A

Apollo

Guest
I think a lot of cards are being thrown out that are merely powerful, not broken (Goblin Welder? Serra Avatar?).

I think a card is only broken if it completely changes the play environment, like Necropotence and Memory Jar did. And "completely changes the play environment" does not mean "added a new deck to the environment." Like, for example, Sneak attack. Sneak Attack isn't broken. It's never even been a truly elite deck, much less dominated an environment, has it?

The exception to this are grossly undercosted cards that can be a benefit to a good number of decks, like Swords to Plowshares or Land Tax or Fastbond. But again, "grossly undercosted" does not mean "efficient." Cards like Propaganda and Mother of Runes are good, not broken.

I think any of the super long lists provided here could easily be sliced in half... by someone with time on their hands.
 

Oversoul

The Tentacled One
Well yes, I did state that some of them would usually not be considered broken, just really cool. I mean, it would be easy to cut that list, especially if "broken" were clearly defined. If it is merely a term used to denote powerful cards, then my list, though long, isn't as extensive as we could go. If you change it to "cards that had massive impact on some format or another" then a great many of the cards on my list did not, and I probably didn't miss too many either (depending on how many formats you look into).

A good example would be Donate. It definitely made an impact--on more than one format, I suppose. But Istanbul asserts that it is not broken, and I can't fully disagree with him. I think in order to clarify what is broken, we'd need to come up with a consensus as to what "broken" means.
 
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